🧵 on how #Mastodon, and the rest of the #Fediverse, invisiblize the #GlobalSouth.

I have argued a few times that for all practical purposes, the global south does not exist for Mastodon, and for the rest of the Fediverse. But many people I interact with do not quite understand how this works in practice.

This series of posts is an effort to illustrate that mechanism.

(continues)

in reply to Feral Thoughts

Say there is a user X on random server Y. Assume that no user on mastodon.social (for example) follows user X. Assume that users on mastodon.social follow other users on server Y. Assume further that neither server has blocked the other.

User X writes a post containing the term, say, #Namibia. The post receives no reply, no boost, no like.

Later, someone searches for #Namibia on mastodon.social. The search results will NOT include user X’s post containing the term #Namibia.

(continues)

reshared this

in reply to Feral Thoughts

@EdwinG been trying to follow more accounts from the #Philippines, and it’s definitely been a challenge. I’m never so sure if there are indeed very few users or it’s just that my server is mostly federating with North American and France servers.

I experience the same thing on a totally different topic. Formula 1. It’s a very European sport and I barely see any content because my French Canadian server isn’t connected to lots of UK or other Europeans servers (beside France)

in reply to Jérôme

@jerome @EdwinG

Maybe.

But how does it differ from today's situation of several relays, each with a partial view of the Fediverse?

Maybe we need special relays focussed on global south servers. Or maybe existing relays should go out of their way to index those servers. Ultimately, all such solutions will boil down to social dynamics.

Unless a significant section of the existing global-north-heavy user base actively wants it to happen, it won't happen.

in reply to Feral Thoughts

@jerome
Relays are configured by the instance’s admin... Posts are pushed to the relay’s inbox; not pulled from the instance. So the second suggestion doesn’t really work with the current implementation.

Regional relays are a reasonable solution I think. There are already country-centric relays… so it’s definitely doable.

in reply to Squads

@squads @EdwinG @jerome

This is what Groups are for, if you post to a group it goes to everyone who follows the group no matter what server they are on:

fedi.tips/how-to-use-groups-on…

Groups are like "super hashtags".

About the general topic of the global south, there need to be a lot more servers managed by people from the global south. For example paktodon.asia is doing a great job but we need more of them.

This entry was edited (9 months ago)

prince lucija reshared this.

in reply to Fedi.Tips 🎄

@FediTips @squads @EdwinG @jerome

The paucity of global south servers ultimately boils down

union.place/@feralthoughts/114…

and

union.place/@feralthoughts/114…

and

union.place/@feralthoughts/114…

(continues)


I think Eleanor Saitta’s maxim, “all technical problems of sufficient scope or impact are actually political problems first”, applies to this case.

infosec.exchange/@dymaxion/109…

(continues)

in reply to Feral Thoughts

@FediTips @squads @EdwinG @jerome

Also: (global south or other low visibility) users/topics on even global north servers get invisiblized.

union.place/@feralthoughts/114…

That’s something that needs to be addressed, I feel.

(continues)

in reply to Feral Thoughts

@FediTips @squads @EdwinG @jerome

As for groups, I agree they are great for people who will pro-actively work towards curating their feed; but an overwhelming majority of the global south, and maybe even of the global north, simply do not have the bandwidth for that.

Life is really miserable for a hell of a lot of people. For them, getting federated social media working is way way down the priority list. It may not even be there.

ps: I value and appreciate your work.

in reply to Feral Thoughts

@squads @EdwinG @jerome

It's as easy to use a group as it is to use a hashtag.

"For them, getting federated social media working is way way down the priority list."

I am not in the global south, but the effect of centralised social media on the global south is horrific:

thebureauinvestigates.com/stor…

theguardian.com/technology/202…

amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/…

These are caused by corrupt centralised social media. Either it needs to be extremely heavily regulated or it needs to be replaced.

in reply to Fedi.Tips 🎄

@FediTips @squads @EdwinG @jerome

That corporations are unscrupulous and will do everything and anything to maximize profits, I have no argument with.

But do not mislead yourself about "cause" vs "convenient tool". If non-corporate, federated social media was as widespread as FB in those places, then it would have been used to facilitate the same atrocities.

Social media overwhelmingly reflects existing social pathologies, it does not play as big a role in creating them as critics believe.

in reply to Feral Thoughts

", then it would have been used to facilitate the same atrocities."

I don't agree with this at all.

The ratio of moderators to users on the Fediverse is something like 100 times better than on Facebook etc. There is typically a human for every 1000 users.

Commercial social networks have barely any moderators. To match the Fediverse's ratio Facebook would need literally millions of moderators, but that would make them financially unviable.

in reply to Fedi.Tips 🎄

@FediTips

If/when the Fedi grows, and becomes socially influential in any of our massively unequal societies; the established powers will rush in, and drive it towards centralization. Or force it to shrink back to its original tiny, socially irrelevant size.

You cannot assume linear scaling, you cannot assume that today’s tiny Fediverse, already flawed in many ways, will scale up without changing character.

This will be as much the case for the global north Fedi as the global south Fedi.

in reply to Feral Thoughts

The Fedi right now is far, far larger than before 2022 (when Musk bought Twitter).

The structure of the Fedi where the servers are owned by thousands of grassroots people means we can ignore corporations if we choose to. That didn't change with the surge in 2022, and Mastodon's software developers were offered VC money in 2022 but they turned it down.

We mustn't obey in advance by assuming that corporations will control everything. An alternative is possible and exists here.

in reply to Fedi.Tips 🎄

@FediTips

I am not obeying in advance, or assuming anything about corporations. Nor am I cynical about the possibilities of change.

I know about mass defederation of gab.com and truth.social. But you have to remember that the Fedi is still tiny, in terms of user base and interactions. It just isn't relevant enough for truly powerful forces to expend resources sufficient to subdue it.

(continues)

in reply to Feral Thoughts

@FediTips

I am based in India. I see everyday, with my own eyes, how the Hindutva hate system operates.

There must be literally hundreds of thousands of Hindutva groups across the country—their local actions are often independently planned and executed, they don’t necessarily act on orders from a high command. In that sense, they are decentralized. And they are loosely federated, they remain in touch, and sometimes get together and plan overall strategies.

(continues)

in reply to Feral Thoughts

This is the largest and one of the most potent hate machines right now on the planet.

I have seen how deeply the poison of communal hate has seeped into the psyches of a very significant fraction of the Indian population. This environment is the result of a century of groundwork, the origins can be traced back to times before the advent of even radio or television, let alone the internet and social media.

(continues)

This entry was edited (9 months ago)
in reply to Feral Thoughts

@FediTips

Today, these groups use WhatsApp extensively, they also use Facebook and Twitter and YouTube and other social media; but believe me, those media didn’t create this ecosystem. The media are a tool, and this machine would exist and operate even if those media disappeared; though of course their mode of operations will undergo some changes.

(continues)

in reply to Feral Thoughts

@FediTips

Real-life experience has taught me that hate and violence against the weak, and even low-key genocide, can operate in a decentralized and federated fashion.

So... no, I am not starry-eyed about decentralization and federation in virtual space; and you shouldn’t be either.

I repeat:

union.place/@feralthoughts/114…

and

union.place/@feralthoughts/114…


So... you cannot build an egalitarian social medium in a world shaped by exploitation and exclusion. The social medium will reflect those inequalities and biases, they won’t magically disappear in the virtual world.

(continues)

in reply to Feral Thoughts

💯, I completely agree. Fedi as it is today is extremely vulnerable to communal hate and incitement of genocide (as well as propaganda and disinformation in general). It's just historically been too small to be widely leveraged for that so far, but if and when that changes we are collectively unprepared for it.

@feralthoughts @FediTips

reshared this

in reply to Jon

in reply to Feral Thoughts

"Social media overwhelmingly reflects existing social pathologies, it does not play as big a role in creating them as critics believe."

This isn't true. Media can play a key role in causing genocide. For example:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_T%…

Facebook etc are allowing lots of RTLMs to exist because they don't moderate properly, and especially don't give a shit about people in the global south.

in reply to Fedi.Tips 🎄

@FediTips

RTLM was literally planned and launched by some of the people who went on to execute the genocide in Rwanda.

If the Fediverse is big, a group like that will launch their own server, and use all legal and extra-legal measures to ensure they become the dominant one. And remember that in an environment fertile for hate, a large number of people will voluntarily join such a server.

The Fedi doesn't exist in a vacuum, it cannot remain immune to social forces.

in reply to Feral Thoughts

"If the Fediverse is big, a group like that will launch their own server, and use all legal and extra-legal measures to ensure they become the dominant one."

We already saw this attempted with gab.com in 2019 and every server blocked them. They eventually left because no one would federate with them.

The main app Tusky rickrolled people who tried to use their app with Gab:

github.com/tuskyapp/Tusky/issu…

Don't obey in advance. Don't assume defeat in advance. We are not powerless.

This entry was edited (9 months ago)
in reply to Fedi.Tips 🎄

@FediTips

union.place/@feralthoughts/114…

union.place/@feralthoughts/114…

union.place/@feralthoughts/114…

union.place/@feralthoughts/114…

union.place/@feralthoughts/114…


@FediTips

I am not obeying in advance, or assuming anything about corporations. Nor am I cynical about the possibilities of change.

I know about mass defederation of gab.com and truth.social. But you have to remember that the Fedi is still tiny, in terms of user base and interactions. It just isn't relevant enough for truly powerful forces to expend resources sufficient to subdue it.

(continues)

Unknown parent

mastodon - Link to source

Feral Thoughts

An overwhelming majority of #GlobalNorth users have no interest in #GlobalSouth topics. They neither follow users focussed on global south issues, nor boost or like posts on global south topics.

That’s their prerogative, of course; but that is also the root cause underlying the above dynamic. There is no obvious resolution to it, at least not within the narrow confines of the #Fediverse.

(continues)

reshared this

in reply to Feral Thoughts

That’s it, that’s the mechanism.

Forget #GlobalNorth users, even #GlobalSouth users cannot find fellow users from their regions, or find posts about the global south, even if both exist.

This happens with most global south users, and with an overwhelming majority of the posts on global south topics.

That’s how #Mastodon, and the rest of the #Fediverse, invisiblize the global south.

(continues)

reshared this

in reply to Feral Thoughts

As a direct consequence, the majority of #GlobalSouth users who drift into the #Fediverse get disillusioned, and return/move on to #Facebook or #Twitter or #Threads.

The #GlobalNorth users on the Fediverse never even become aware of this loss; though many of them perceive the monotony of voices/topics, and silently move out; leaving behind a tiny, malnourished social medium.

(continues)

This entry was edited (9 months ago)

reshared this

in reply to Feral Thoughts

Quite accurate and a direct consequence of the peer to peer nature of fediverse technology. This is an area which, to borrow a good term for @cwebber , the shared heap of Bluesky does better, since it creates a global pool for discovery. It doesn't have to be so, though. Participating in relays to see more traffic than your local userbase follows isn't as expensive as it might seem, because bandwidth and write capacity are fairly cheap.
@feralthoughts
in reply to Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦

ActivityPub is a difficult protocol for small servers which want to participate in the global conversation. It's quite ok for publishing, though not necessarily better than ATproto, and it's good for nominally sovereign hosting, but at the cost of pretty bad discovery. I have argued for some time that fedi needs service providers for search indices. Perhaps that would be a job for a well-rounded relay provider.
@feralthoughts
in reply to Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦

@osma

Only a big/rich entity can afford to host a resource-heavy all-seeing relay, so the relay would become a potential point of centralization and control---that's the argument against a single all-seeing relay.

I understand the argument, and even sympathize with it; perhaps community-control of the single relay could be an option; but I don't know how many people have the will and the bandwidth to work at it.

Unknown parent

mastodon - Link to source

James Smith 💾

this isn't a complete solution by far, but you may like to know that the "no search results" problem is being worked on by the Fediscovery project: fediscovery.org/

Hopefully that will help a little, though of course there's more we can all do to actively follow and engage with people of the #GlobalSouth.

Unknown parent

mastodon - Link to source

Feral Thoughts

@cybeardjm @GinevraCat

It is a vicious cycle. Global South users have no way of finding relevant users/posts, no way of even knowing how many exist, so most of them simply abandon the Fediverse.

The global south servers/users may have been few to begin with, but there is nothing here to retain even those, or to attract new ones.

This entry was edited (9 months ago)
Unknown parent

mastodon - Link to source

DJM (freelance for hire)

@weaver I live in West Africa, and indeed, what was called FreeBasics a few years ago did, and still does (under a different name), a lot to kill the understanding of what the internet is.
Most users who own a smartphone (there are still many feature phones) usually don't have the digital literacy to go further than FB, Whatsapp, Twitter for a few, and the likes of TikTok for the younger generation.

There's a second problem: how many instances in the Global South?

Unknown parent

ActivityPub - Link to source

TÔ DE MUDANÇA

@santiago @nitrml @anilmc

Coincidently I have just updated a list of brazilian microblog instances (Mastodon, Friendica, GoToSocial, snac etc.), as part of the #DiversiVerso project.

There's 86 of them on the updated list: diversiverso.disquete.online/b…

Unknown parent

mastodon - Link to source

Niko Trimmel

@santiago @anilmc @augustocc

Two mastodon instances from South Africa: mastodon.africa and mastodon.monoceros.co.za.

mastodon.holeyfox.co is a Nigerian instance.

mastodon.mg from Madagascar.

Sasa.africa is another African one.

Here is a map and list of instances by location:
umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/m…

reshared this

Unknown parent

hometown - Link to source

Dendan Setia (Nins)

@anagnostes it's not a another euphemism for the third world - to the extent that it is, it's more of a self-appointed and preferred term for most of the globe as a political identity and locates the definition more directly as being impacted by colonialism (not alliance to the western capitalist or communist blocs). If you're not in the global south, yes yes this is a very new and exciting terminology but it's decades old at this point @feralthoughts @fredbrooker
in reply to Frank Küsel

@anagnostes it explains it very well - Australia is a Crown colony that very clearly defines itself as a western state and a settler colonial one, is the most obvious answer. It has membership in the OECD for example. If you're there you don't access the terminology - afaik South Korea never tried and it's got a more direct history of colonization and occupation. @feralthoughts @fredbrooker
Unknown parent

hometown - Link to source

Dendan Setia (Nins)

@fredbrooker Yes a crown colony like Australia, and also self-identified Western state, which takes them out of consideration entirely (as global south is an oppositional identity to the global north of which the west is the founding bloc). Also in OECD, in fact also doesn't receive foreign aid but disburses it. Is this like how white westerners keep trying to find indigenous ancestors so they can also say they're POC? @anagnostes @feralthoughts
in reply to Renaud Chaput

@renchap

In a follow-up thread posted at

union.place/@feralthoughts/114…

I placed the "global south invisiblization" problem in a larger context, and suggested a couple of steps that may remedy the situation.

I have no idea whether, and to what extent, it overlaps with your roadmap. Would appreciate your comments.


My 🧵, on how #Mastodon, and the rest of the #Fediverse, invisiblize the #GlobalSouth, at

union.place/@feralthoughts/114…

triggered discussion as to what can be done to prevent global south users/topics from getting erased on federated #SocialMedia.

This 🧵 is my effort to place the problem in a larger context, and to suggest steps towards resolving the problem.

(continues)

in reply to Feral Thoughts

I feel like this argument is conflating several roles of different providers under a single Mastodon banner.

I agree, if you walk into a social club where people do not speak your language and they're talking about things that don't interest you, it's going to be a boring social club. You will leave. That's expected.

But Mastodon isn't a social club. The dozen people who work there specialize in helping other people set up the social clubs.

And Mastodon helps find a club... 1/n

Unknown parent

mastodon - Link to source

Feral Thoughts

@petrescatraian

I applaud your perseverance with the #Fediverse, but this isn’t about your tenacity, or of mine.

I am pointing out that the present architecture and social makeup of the Fediverse ensures that it will remain the online equivalent of a cozy white suburban neighbourhood.

Some may say there’s nothing wrong with that; I already received replies to that effect. I suppose that too is a legitimate viewpoint.

(continues)

Cătă doesn't like this.

in reply to Feral Thoughts

Unknown parent

mastodon - Link to source

Feral Thoughts

@petrescatraian

And in that context, I would add

union.place/@feralthoughts/114…


Black and brown folks have no reason to undertake the Sisyphean task of pushing the #Fediverse up the hill of egalitarianism (though credit to all the people who keep at it).

This isn’t a fight over ownership of material resources, or a struggle for power in the real world. It is just some software. Hardly anyone in the world is even aware of it.

A coloured person may think: let the white clan here wallow in each other’s company, let them have the Fediverse.

And that’s a rational viewpoint.

in reply to Niko Trimmel

@nitrml @santiago @anilmc @augustocc I'm really just spit balling and haven't thought this through, but I'm curious if maybe a bot would help here? I'm imagining a way to better concentrate boosts of posts from less visible geographic regions so that following the concentrator bot would be a better one-stop shopping point and also make direct federation to those servers happen?
in reply to Feral Thoughts

UkeleleEric reshared this.

in reply to Feral Thoughts

@josir wild thought: is it possible to do a 'statistical' search feature that just 'samples' the whole fediverse? Then you could just scale up or down how much it might cost to run? And maybe lots of these statistical search things interconnected could allow for following a poorly connected hashtag and not get zero results forever but instead have some small non zero chance of finding the hashtag?

I don't understand all the technicalities. Just freely hand wavy brainstorming.

in reply to poleguy looking for lost tools

Certainly, “statistical” search algorithm(s) can be developed.

I proposed something along those lines in this thread.

union.place/@feralthoughts/114…

But will instance admins/users want to implement them? And will other instance admins/users be willing to grant permission for the search algorithm(s) to scrape their content?

If most of them refuse, then it will not be effective/useful for the vast majority of users.


My 🧵, on how #Mastodon, and the rest of the #Fediverse, invisiblize the #GlobalSouth, at

union.place/@feralthoughts/114…

triggered discussion as to what can be done to prevent global south users/topics from getting erased on federated #SocialMedia.

This 🧵 is my effort to place the problem in a larger context, and to suggest steps towards resolving the problem.

(continues)

This entry was edited (8 months ago)
in reply to Feral Thoughts

@josir I don't even consider this a "search" since it would only help find hashtags. And if you are adding hashtags doesn't that always mean you want to be seen?

I know that's probably naive.

People posting on social media are never asking to not be found. Nobody is clamoring for privacy in the fediverse. But they are complaining about not finding their hashtags or their people. And the only thing that seems to be a roadblock is cost? Don't let fear of search/privacy stop us!

in reply to poleguy looking for lost tools

@poleguy @josir

I know the current search is limited to hashtags, though what I proposed wasn't limited to them. I even proposed a home feed customized to each user's interests, location etc. (what people here call the "algorithm").

Regarding your other point: they may be a tiny minority, but there is a very vocal group of people on Fedi who ask not to be found. Some of them even want to be reachable only by people they explicitly permit ("allowlist federation").

Unknown parent

mastodon - Link to source

Feral Thoughts

@katzenberger

In this thread itself, you can see a long exchange between @FediTips and me, starting at

social.growyourown.services/@F…


@squads @EdwinG @jerome

This is what Groups are for, if you post to a group it goes to everyone who follows the group no matter what server they are on:

fedi.tips/how-to-use-groups-on…

Groups are like "super hashtags".

About the general topic of the global south, there need to be a lot more servers managed by people from the global south. For example paktodon.asia is doing a great job but we need more of them.

Unknown parent

mastodon - Link to source

Feral Thoughts

@katzenberger

Sigh - yet another example of the accursed "partial view" on Mastodon.

I hear a solution is in the pipeline.

Friendica, Hubzilla, Forte, and all the other Mike Macgirvin creations do this in a fundamentally better way.

The overwhelming popularity of Mastodon is a huge millstone round the neck of the larger Fediverse.

@FediTips