This is why I dumped the bridge. If they're welcoming and verifying accounts from fascists, they're the Nazi bar. I'm not risking anyone here by "federating" with fascists.
Very depressing to see the reaction from Bluesky users on their Reddit, they're basically saying it's fine to host ICE as someone who doesn't want to see it can block it from their own feed.
There's no thought being given at all to the violent dangerous hatred the ICE account will spread to those who don't block it, and the consequent radicalisation.
You can't block someone attacking you on the street, and that's what ICE is trying to make happen.
EDIT: If you don't understand what I mean, please read this social.chinwag.org/@FediThing/… about why personal blocking is not enough.
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Very depressing to see the reaction from Bluesky users on their Reddit, they're basically saying it's fine to host ICE as someone who doesn't want to see it can block it from their own feed.
There's no thought being given at all to the violent dangerous hatred the ICE account will spread to those who don't block it, and the consequent radicalisation.
You can't block someone attacking you on the street, and that's what ICE is trying to make happen.
EDIT: If you don't understand what I mean, please read this social.chinwag.org/@FediThing/… about why personal blocking is not enough.
Imagine a stranger spreads lies about you. They tell everyone you're doing horrible stuff, the worst crimes imaginable. They make videos, articles, livestreams, all pushing the same lies designed to make everyone hate and fear you.
Would you "just block them"?
What happens when other people don't block them? When other people believe them, follow them, share their lies?
What if this turns into real life abuse? If someone attacks you or your family?
This is what vulnerable minorities face because of badly-moderated social media:
@FediThing Giving them a platform of any kind also gives them power. I get that Bluesky wants to remain neutral here but this is not the time. Neutrality just feeds fascism.
@drearicheli They SAY they want to stay neutral, but what they really want is fascism, and to be the social media network that gets the nod from the fascists.
@kwarg Hang on a sec. Everyone here is against ICE - for obvious and serious reasons. And Bsky have chosen to not block ICE. But Grutjes, the person you responded to just now is a couple of steps removed from serious wrongdoing here. They didn't denounce bsky for failing to denounce ICE. I think it's fair that you disagree with them about that, but I don't think it deserves such blunt hostility.
Yeah I can see that. I understand where you are coming from. But this isn't Twitter. We generally talk in good faith. When you attack neutral positions with as much vigor as you attack hostile positions - it ... well, it's bad for a variety of reasons that I think you probably don't need me to explain.
@Gryficowa @karadoc I think you all jump too quickly to conclusions... I despise ICE and everything it stands for as much as any of you. I am just saying that I'd prefed to be able to differentiate what is a verified source from an account that might just be a couple of ICE fanboys. I could also be wrong, but we could at the very least have a conversation and discuss about it. I have a different opinion about who's the problem on the fediverse.
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have reacted the way I did. There are two reasons why I got annoyed by your reaction. The first reason is that my point is not about verifying. It's about Bsky welcoming ICE even after they verified them, knowing it was really them.
The second reason is not your fault, so that's why I shouldn't have reacted like that. Sorry I did.
You were one of many people that reacted as though it is no problem that Bsky allows ICE an account. I think it's quite stupid not to see why allowing them on Bsky is a problem, but you are responsible for your own words and not for dozens of others.
i mean, why let them make one in the first place? only someone who doesn't think what they're doing is abhorrent does not stand in their way. by all means ice is modern day slave patrols and gestapo
Doubtless they have many accounts already monitoring these sources masquerading as civilians. The only reason for an official government account is to start posting responses / propaganda / disinformation.
I believe in a fedi for everyone so people should be able to follow the Trump administration here. like horrible people are allowed to have websites on the net and we can visit them in any browser.
the way it would work here is the administration would run their own server and people could federate or not.
the way bluesky does it, they are paying for infrastructure to allow them to reach people. and maybe running algos that recommend them. ugh.
@monkey Being on Bluesky allows ICE to recruit there, spread propaganda there, and follow anti-ICE accounts to more easily get information about protests or people to target. From ICE's point of view, there's no reason to not have an account there.
Bluesky and its fediverse bridges are now dangerous to anyone ICE may target (which may end up being a much wider section of the population than currently).
@monkey I have to ask why you would think it's weird for ICE to have a BS account, when their whole deal is trying to gestapo US citizens, and BS is known to be a liberal hub where people openly share contacts and plans and state their political stances. It feels to me like the perfect place to try to surveil the opposition and collect "evidence"
@edgeofeurope @monkey And they probably are. The ICE presence is a blatant intimidation tactic. "We are here, we are monitoring you. there's no place where you will feel safe"
It wasn't that long ago that even people like Cory Doctorow were (I hope it's past tense) endorsing that totally self-defeating money-hole project to bridge Bluesky to Fedi through spending billions to rewrite their proprietary protocol.
The initiative, Free Our Feeds, aims to protect Bluesky’s underlying technology, the AT Protocol, and leverage it to create an open social media ecosystem that can’t be controlled by a single company or billionaires, including Bluesky itself.
Mastodon server administrators must exclude "bsky.brid.gy" to terminate Bluesky interactions (federation) on their Mastodon servers. It is time to take a stand against the devil in disguise...
Wow, great timing! I just deleted my Poosky account yesterday, after deleting all my posts, DMs, replies, likes, lists and media, which took a long time, especially my followers list. For some reason, Poosky stopped me from unfollowing the 750 users I still had left to unfollow...
I mean. The way they facilitate mass harassment campaigns and punish the victim is a big clue too. They plan to poach Musk’s users. It’s not about anything we care about for these people; it’s about future ad revenue.
I absolutely hate what Trump and ICE are doing to my community.
I also worry that we are increasingly putting ourselves in social media bubbles to the point we can no longer even acknowledge the existence of people or points of view we disagree with. America is in the shit right now. How do we come out of it with something resembling a functional democracy?
@andyw350 Color me unreasonable if you wish, but I don't think "we should have an unaccountable masked police force dragging undesirables away into concentration camps and killing dissidents in the streets" is a viewpoint worth accommodating.
My preferred path towards reconciliation remains prosecution for the ringleaders and worst offenders, alongside a truth and reconciliation commission for the rest.
But I think the more likely outcome will be something like post-Reconstruction Jim Crow America, where we forge an unstable and worthless peace too quickly with unrepentant evil, and allow that rot to continue inflicting unrelenting terror and atrocities upon further victims for generations.
I think this is the wrecking of America as a nation. Maybe there will exist the superficial trappings of a government and a democracy, but we are no longer united by shared values or shared interests.
@andyw350 There is no space where we need to give a platform to stormtroopers or fascist apologia. We're not in a bubble, rather they need to be quarantined because of their ideology of hate and destruction.That bubbles narrative is based on normalisation BS that wants the Overton Window to look out over death camps.
@andyw350 And you're probably a reasonable person who wants to be decent and nice and that's why you're moved by the 'let's not be in bubbles and let's hear what one another has to say' vibe.
I'm not aiming to yell at your desire to do the right thing, but to warn anyone who thinks they're being nice and sensible, and working toward cohesion: fascists benefit when we treat them like normal, good-faith people we simply disagree with instead of as members of a merciless death cult
@andyw350 I think there's important context there.
If the disagreement is over whether more taxes or fewer taxes are best for society then yeah, that's a minor disagreement and social bubbles are detrimental.
But if the difference is over whether or not to run a fascist state that uses armed thugs to kidnap its citizens and whether some people deserve to exist then it stops being "all opinions are valid" and becomes "there is no reasonable middle ground and you are only detrimental to society, my community, and my mental health". At that point, blocking is perfectly reasonable because no good can come from hearing them.
i don't think the verification works the same way though, it makes it easier for people to know that account is legit and needs to be blocked. People are openly hostile towards the account.
also ice.0x0.boo/ (ice block tracker) is interesting.
(I wont say anything is an alternative, we just need to build our own circle for sure across platforms)
The verification is not the problem, the welcoming is. Bsky allows ICE to have an account with just the same argument as "if nazi Germany declared that it's legal to kill Jews, there's nothing wrong with it."
Bluesky has a moderation policy saying just that. They will ban illegal content, but they allow the ICE Gestapo, Vance and other fascists to be on Bsky, despite countless users reporting them.
i mean... i quit after they effectively censored me with the tag that said "rude" and moderation is a joke especially after i got dogpiled by those degenerates that claim they are inclusive or whatever and the moderators didn't do shit. it is just twitter with a different ui and fonts. same old shit with the same toxic communities that tried to spread to mastodon several times now.
@wtwagg It's not about you or your feed, it's about the spread of hateful lies. Here's an example to explain what I mean, it was written about Threads but applies to Bluesky as well: social.chinwag.org/@FediThing/…
Imagine a stranger spreads lies about you. They tell everyone you're doing horrible stuff, the worst crimes imaginable. They make videos, articles, livestreams, all pushing the same lies designed to make everyone hate and fear you.
Would you "just block them"?
What happens when other people don't block them? When other people believe them, follow them, share their lies?
What if this turns into real life abuse? If someone attacks you or your family?
This is what vulnerable minorities face because of badly-moderated social media:
The verification is not the problem, the welcoming is. Bsky allows ICE to have an account with just the same argument as "if nazi Germany declared that it's legal to kill Jews, there's nothing wrong with it."
Bluesky has a moderation policy saying just that. They will ban illegal content, but they allow the ICE Gestapo, Vance and other fascists to be on Bsky, despite countless users reporting them.
Curious questions in this context: What would happen if #ICE tried to create an account i.e. on mastodon.social? 1. Would the community rules prevent this? 2. Would the account be active until a number of users would report content that actually offends their community rules? 3. If they can also verify prove access to ICE's official website - wouldn't it be "verified" automatically? 4. How many servers would actually degenerate from Mastodon's biggest server because of one account? 🙄
And if ICE registered a Mastodon account with a smaller server whose community rules would not prohibit ICE's content - how long would it take for servers that represent more than half of the Fediverse's users to actually defederate that server?
Just take sure I'm not mistaken on this issue: I despise ICE's actions and the political agenda it stands for. I'm just not sure whether the Fediverse could guarantee a "better" reaction to an attempt to register an account here
@tetrapyloctomist I've seen a major UK TERF account removed without any transphobic content (yet) at the threat of a Fediblock. I and a number of others reported them, with evidence it was really them. So I hope the same would happen in this case and more optimistic. It's why I'm still here.
@dario @tetrapyloctomist The difference between bluesky and mastodon is that mastodon consists of many servers while bluesky consists of one... So one mastodon server does not mean the whole mastodon, but the whole bluesky server means bluesky
@Gryficowa @tetrapyloctomist That's outdated. There are at least two interoperating main networks, Bluesky and Blacksky, with an upcoming Eurosky network too.
Even internally Bluesky is composed by hundreds of servers. It's quite easy to self-host your account and offer hosting to others.
We can discuss but on facts. No need to patronize or berate for having different opinions.
@Gryficowa @tetrapyloctomist You are conflating two things. Obviously fascism isn't a different opinion. There are fediverse servers hosting fascist or purely fascists, as other instances defederate them as soon as possible. They wouldn't need to if they didn't exist!
Bluesky works different. Blocks are at account level, the network can't really block anything at global level as they don't have absolute control over the accounts hosting.
This is one more very informative and scary fact. The issue is that all people, myself included have limited capacity of remembering these facts.
@everyone thismeans we need people building short summaries to easily post about bsky if we meet an apologist. That is how you make politics. You need to have facts ready because the other side does!
Ich glaub, es geht darum, daß man sie überhaupt auf die Plattform läßt. Kuck mal, wem der Account folgt... Und wir wissen alle, wofür sie den Acc nutzen werden. Kann man schon kritisch sehen.
@hakendran Meine Frage an Dich war erstmal nur, ob Du das bereits mitbekommen hast. Welcoming und endorsing sind ja auch zwei verschiedene Dinge. Nur soviel dazu: #ICE ist nicht irgend eine US-Behoerde, aber das weisst Du ja - Du nennst die Dinge ja auch beim Namen. Sehr viele der (auch US-)Kommentatoren, die noch alle ihre Tassen im Schrank haben, nennen ICE mittlerweile T****s SS/GeStaPo und ich kann dem nicht mehr widersprechen. Verifizieren und Aufnehmen (statt vom Hof jagen) kommt bereits ebenso gebueckt rueber, wie all die anderen Tech-Oligarchen, die sich im orangenen Desppoten-Darm-Des-Donald eingenistet haben. Aber das Offensichtliche mal beiseite: Die entscheidende Einschaetzung von bsky findet in meinen Augen ohnehin eher bei Jonathan Haidt statt. Ich moechte leidenschaftlich die aktuelle Folge von #HardFork dazu empfehlen. So lan
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@hakendran Meine Frage an Dich war erstmal nur, ob Du das bereits mitbekommen hast. Welcoming und endorsing sind ja auch zwei verschiedene Dinge. Nur soviel dazu: #ICE ist nicht irgend eine US-Behoerde, aber das weisst Du ja - Du nennst die Dinge ja auch beim Namen. Sehr viele der (auch US-)Kommentatoren, die noch alle ihre Tassen im Schrank haben, nennen ICE mittlerweile T****s SS/GeStaPo und ich kann dem nicht mehr widersprechen. Verifizieren und Aufnehmen (statt vom Hof jagen) kommt bereits ebenso gebueckt rueber, wie all die anderen Tech-Oligarchen, die sich im orangenen Desppoten-Darm-Des-Donald eingenistet haben. Aber das Offensichtliche mal beiseite: Die entscheidende Einschaetzung von bsky findet in meinen Augen ohnehin eher bei Jonathan Haidt statt. Ich moechte leidenschaftlich die aktuelle Folge von #HardFork dazu empfehlen. So lange bsky per Algorithmus die Monetarisierung vorantreibt, um am Ende xitter einzuholen und dabei halt auch nur die Faschsiten unterstuetzt, wie alle anderen Milliardaere auch, ist bsky eben keine Alternative zu xitter. Und ich denke, das ist alles, was der OP hat ausdruecken wollen.
Exactly. It's not about verifcation at all. It's about verifying and then, despite knowing who they are, welcoming. Bsky will moderate, but they will allow Gestapo.
I'm glad people are noticing this but its nothing new for Bluesky. clearsky.app's "top blocked" is full of the administration's accounts, including the verified DHS and Department of "War"
True. But (like you, I guess) I think that we should not shrug our shoulders about fascism because there's so much of it. This is a new low, which luckily people still find important.
I wish people would consider Mastodon. I hear a lot of people in the 50501 groups want a Facebook alternative. They think Mastodon is too hard to navigate.
Mastodon is a (very good) twitter clone, not a facebook clone. I wish we had better developed facebook alternatives in the Fediverse, but Friendica still has a lot of problems, barely any users and doesn't have enough (if any) active developers.
@Callalily Friendica takes too long to accept or give you some numbers as password/login... And yes, even though they approved me, somehow I couldn't get in... Seriously, friendica is a nightmare in this respect...
Hail, traveller!
The roads have been busy with everyone fleeing the Pit of the Demon King.
So you're going South I see...
Yes, everyone's going South to the …
Could you please try to approach fascism as a human being in solidarity with its victims, rather than as a consumer who can simply order something else in the store?
@lostgen @FediThing Twitter has played games with blocking but I've never had an issue with Bluesky. Anyone is always one block away from an unwanted change on any platform.
I like Mastodon, but I am actually grateful that not all of the Fediverse is a twitter clone. I wish Friendica was better developed so we had a serious alternative for facebook as well.
BlueSky was always doomed because they are centralized and therefore forced to essentially pick a side in every conflict.
Twitter is also centralized, but they're (now) centralized around a strong leader that a lot of people like. He still gets himself in occasional hot water with public opinion ("fuck yourself in the face" drama explosion). His leadership is not sustainable though, once he's gone there's no committee that can hope to get the same popular deference that he has.
BlueSky's situation is worse because there's no leader who people might look up to as there is in Twitter, Gab, or TruthSocial. They have a committee that has to make decisions and then when they make a decision, ~half of their base is going to hate them for it. And this will just repeat until all of their users have left.
Every twitter-like centralized platform is fragile in this sense, and the fediverse is anti-fragile because it thrives on diversity of opinion.
@ninesigns I don't know, but I know that in Poland (I live in this swamp (hiding Jews from the Nazis ended with the execution of the entire family... And still American films about the Holocaust are problematic (Like omitting the Roma...)
In short... Bastards don't obey the law, but you have to, because... Because they need to have power over you
That's my point. Bsky can easily moderate ICE into oblivion, it's a concious choice to not do that. But even if ICE did not violate TOS, the TOS is simply wrong.
Well they are a vulture capital financed centralised (no matter what the ads say) social network.
Prove me wrong btw, and setup a full blue sky instance that links with the main blue sky network.
Oops.
Mastodon is either use your credit card with a number of providers that offer Mastodon instances, or some fiddling with DNS, let's encrypt, and some docker containers.
See a difference.
It's the difference between certain European e-truck makers (were you can simply buy the
Imagine a stranger spreads lies about you. They tell everyone you're doing horrible stuff, the worst crimes imaginable. They make videos, articles, livestreams, all pushing the same lies designed to make everyone hate and fear you.
Would you "just block them"?
What happens when other people don't block them? When other people believe them, follow them, share their lies?
What if this turns into real life abuse? If someone attacks you or your family?
This is what vulnerable minorities face because of badly-moderated social media:
A few of their press releases say that, sure. But in practice, with the feature set and moderation decisions, it's basically Twitter from five years ago, with all the positive and negative things that implies.
Bluesky known for censoring LGBT organizations, journalists who revealed corruptions and people who are critics of government in Turkey.
Here's HumanRightsWatch open letter to social media companies which mentions about it (while not sent directly to Bluesky). hrw.org/news/2025/05/08/joint-…
We the undersigned civil society organizations urge your companies to uphold the right to freedom of expression of your users in Türkiye and resist Turkish state censorship that restricts expression protected under international human rights law.
Thanks for the many boosts & comments! It's important people know that Bsky app collaborates with ICE & other fascists by allowing them accounts, even after they verified them.
(Verification is not a problem. Not deleting their account afterwards is!)
Now some people take the opportunity to tell everyone they are not surprised. I understand, neither am I. You probably warned for this to happen, just like me.
But I'm not sure how telling everyone you're not surprised is helping anyone.
Maybe the important thing is not whether it's surprising, but how bad it is. 🧵
If someone says it's totally OK if ICE is on Bsky, please don't hold back.
People who say that ICE should be able to have an account on social media (or anywhere) as long as they obey the TOS, are the same people who think it was totally OK for nazi's to commit the Holocaust, as nazi law didn't say it was illegal to murder Jews.
It's centrists like that who brought us to this point, and I deeply hate them for it. 🧵
But if someone expresses shock that Bsky allows ICE in... I think that's actually a GOOD thing.
At least it shows they care. Hopefully they'll conclude they're better off organizing themselves at decentral, non commercial social media like the Fediverse. Organize to resist fascism & surveillance capitalism at the same time.
However, telling them you're NOT surprised, maybe even telling them how smart you are compared to them, isn't going to win more people over, is it?
agreed on the first post of this two-part thread and also the second. It is not okay for ICE to be on Bsky, but it is for those who saw it coming not very surprising, but then again if someone's shocked by it happening then that's a good sign that at least they're realising now and "lol I knew that'd happen" is not a great way to respond
We can't all have always known all there is to know about everything
I understand where you're coming from, but this reasoning seems too full of unintended consequences to me. if ICE were to set up an account on some fediverse server, or even set up its own fediverse server, what would your response be, aside from presumably blocking it? would you leave the fediverse over it, and call out anyone else who didn't do likewise?
This is exactly the point in which the Fediverse is far better than Bsky (Bsky is decentralised in their marketing but not in reality)
If ICE would make an account on for example BadlyModeratedMastodonServer.social, and they would not get kicked off by the server moderators, almost all other servers would defederate from that server. Just like we defederated from Trumps truth.social (which was built upon mastodon)
@lxo Taking responsibility and ousting nazis as a community, in stead of behaving like an individual consumer.
You don't need to leave the Fediverse if one server goes bad. You can isolate nazi's and cut their server from the global community, protecting everyone in it.
I guess you will also agree on why your earlier messaging was problematic: it sounded like the issue was that they could get an account, and could get it verified, but these same affordances would be available to them with pretty much any ActivityPub-compatible server software, whether operated by themselves or even by some third parties.
the key difference, as you pointed out in response to my question, and which I advise you to focus your messaging on, is on how the server operators and the community would or could respond.
another IMHO problematic messaging weakness in the choice of use of the cartoon, is that it brings to (my?) mind the frequent nazi bar argument, that could lead people to react by leaving the space to the incoming fascists, instead of standing strong there and isolating them or pushing their hateful behaviors out. that association may be a "me" overreaction, because that argument's defeatism and manipulative nature often trigger me, and you hopefully didn't mean any of that, but it may be something to keep in mind
Sorry, I don't think my "messaging is problematic"
1. You want answers from me about Fediverse, but my thread was not about Fediverse but about Bsky. I'm fine with a short continuation into new territory, changing the subject a bit, but it's not problematic that my 1st post was not about the subject YOU want to talk about.
2. No, of course most activity pub servers would not allow ICE to make AND KEEP an account. Servers that do should be defederated instantly, otherwise yes, nazi bar.
I guess and hope we agree on the idea that moderaters should kick ICE out immediately, if they would make an account on a server.
This, by the way, is the goal of the "nazi bar argument" as well. The goal is not to make space for nazi's, the goal is to not accept them at your table.
@lostgen @wtwagg @FediThing What do you mean by that? I can block anyone I want on Bluesky. I can even find lists of accounts, maintained by activists I trust, of accounts to block. If I request, they’re all blocked from me, as are new entrants to the list. . If BS weakens the block function in any way, I’m gone. But I see no sign of that happening.
It's not just about you hiding stuff from your feed, it's about stopping the hatred being spread to other people's feeds and radicalising them.
Even though ICE has the most blocks, it's still only a minority of people blocking them overall. They are free to spread their lies to most people, and some of those people will believe the lies.
Also, even seeing the account itself not being banned from the platform while other accounts are banned gives ICE a sense of respectability, like it's something normal to have a government agency murdering people and kidnapping them.
@FediThing @spradlig @lostgen People who do not follow will likely never see the account. Those that do see it are always free to call them out and expose any lies. This cancel culture crap is a big part of why Trump is in power today.
On every instance I'm on there are always people trying to get other people banned. This is a bad idea. At least in the fediverse you can always create your own instance for more control.
"This cancel culture crap is a big part of why Trump is in power today."
This is abuser's logic. It's blaming the victim for what the abuser does.
"Those that do see it are always free to call them out and expose any lies"
...or they believe the lies and become radicalised. That's why these accounts exist, that's why propaganda exists. They repeat the lies over and over and over until people accept them as truth.
That's the real reason why Trump is in power, because of the lies told by Fox News etc. They know it works, that's why they do it.
1. Bigoted account on social media repeats lies about minorities 2. People believe the lies, become radicalised, spread the bigotry to friends, who spread it to friends etc 3. It leads to widespread discrimination, threats and even murder
@FediThing @spradlig @lostgen I could not disagree more. We both dislike this account but at some point you will say someone needs to shut down another account I might choose to follow.
Imagine there was an account that spread lies about you. It told people you had done some horrible crime, and said that people needed to take action against you.
Would you be comfortable with simply blocking that account and allowing others to follow it? Knowing that the account was telling lies and inciting violence against you?
@FediThing @spradlig @lostgen You are trying to protect the world from stupid people and that is a slippery slope. Better to put up better arguments and ideas.
epicdemiologist
in reply to Grutjes • • •Cainmark Does Not Comply 🚲 reshared this.
Clifton Royston
in reply to epicdemiologist • • •Yeah, same.
FediThing
in reply to Grutjes • • •Yup, just checked, web profile at bsky.app/profile/icegov.bsky.s…
Verified and everything 😡
Bluesky are collaborators.
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Laura "Tegan" Gjovaag ⛈ 🐸
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krejgo
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lor
in reply to krejgo • • •FediThing
in reply to Grutjes • • •Very depressing to see the reaction from Bluesky users on their Reddit, they're basically saying it's fine to host ICE as someone who doesn't want to see it can block it from their own feed.
There's no thought being given at all to the violent dangerous hatred the ICE account will spread to those who don't block it, and the consequent radicalisation.
You can't block someone attacking you on the street, and that's what ICE is trying to make happen.
EDIT: If you don't understand what I mean, please read this social.chinwag.org/@FediThing/… about why personal blocking is not enough.
Very depressing to see the reaction from Bluesky users on their Reddit, they're basically saying it's fine to host ICE as someone who doesn't want to see it can block it from their own feed.
There's no thought being given at all to the violent dangerous hatred the ICE account will spread to those who don't block it, and the consequent radicalisation.
You can't block someone attacking you on the street, and that's what ICE is trying to make happen.
EDIT: If you don't understand what I mean, please read this social.chinwag.org/@FediThing/… about why personal blocking is not enough.
FediThing
2024-06-08 13:35:46
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Drea
in reply to FediThing • • •xinit ☕ / 🗑🔥
in reply to Drea • • •@drearicheli
They SAY they want to stay neutral, but what they really want is fascism, and to be the social media network that gets the nod from the fascists.
@FediThing @Grutjes
FediThing
in reply to xinit ☕ / 🗑🔥 • • •@xinit @drearicheli
I think you're both right!
Drea's right about the folly of neutrality in the face of fascism, but also xinit is right that Bluesky are sucking up to a fascist goverment.
Guessing Bluesky just want money and power, they see pleasing fascists as a way to get both.
Hot Dog Water
in reply to Grutjes • • •iris ✿ sandwalker
in reply to Grutjes • • •Mastodon Migration
in reply to Grutjes • • •One more time for those in the back...
The dog is working for the man
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Susanna the Artist 🌻
in reply to Grutjes • • •The Febrile Muse
in reply to Grutjes • • •RememberUsAlways
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libramoon
in reply to Grutjes • • •kwarg
in reply to Grutjes • • •FediThing
in reply to kwarg • • •Verifying a bunch of murderers is something they didn't have to do.
Hosting the murderers' account is something they didn't have to do.
They chose to do this.
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Grutjes
in reply to kwarg • • •@kwarg
Why don´t you fuck off kwarg
K~
in reply to Grutjes • • •Hang on a sec. Everyone here is against ICE - for obvious and serious reasons. And Bsky have chosen to not block ICE. But Grutjes, the person you responded to just now is a couple of steps removed from serious wrongdoing here. They didn't denounce bsky for failing to denounce ICE. I think it's fair that you disagree with them about that, but I don't think it deserves such blunt hostility.
Grutjes
in reply to K~ • • •@karadoc
Sorry, it's this centrist attitude that got us here, and I have no patience for it.
K~
in reply to Grutjes • • •Gryficowa
in reply to K~ • • •kwarg
in reply to Gryficowa • • •Grutjes
in reply to kwarg • • •@kwarg
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have reacted the way I did.
There are two reasons why I got annoyed by your reaction.
The first reason is that my point is not about verifying. It's about Bsky welcoming ICE even after they verified them, knowing it was really them.
@Gryficowa @karadoc
Grutjes
in reply to Grutjes • • •@kwarg
The second reason is not your fault, so that's why I shouldn't have reacted like that. Sorry I did.
You were one of many people that reacted as though it is no problem that Bsky allows ICE an account.
I think it's quite stupid not to see why allowing them on Bsky is a problem, but you are responsible for your own words and not for dozens of others.
@Gryficowa @karadoc
tillian 🦊 ACAB
in reply to kwarg • • •Nicolás Alvarez
in reply to tillian 🦊 ACAB • • •Grutjes
in reply to Nicolás Alvarez • • •@nicolas17
Sweet jesus. Try to get your head around it. They verified ICE, and after that they didn't delete the motherfucking account.
If you think that's OK please get the fuck out of here.
@mynameistillian @kwarg
joene 🏴🍉
in reply to Grutjes • • •Birdo de Todon
in reply to Grutjes • • •EndicottRoad59
in reply to Grutjes • • •RememberUsAlways
in reply to Grutjes • • •"What's your canvas?" Should be the question everyone is asking now.
RememberUsAlways
in reply to RememberUsAlways • • •Celeste Ryder 🐾 🐀🏳️🌈
in reply to RememberUsAlways • • •zetabeta
Unknown parent • • •bsky's block list is public information.
weltschvitz
in reply to Grutjes • • •reshared this
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Grutjes
in reply to weltschvitz • • •@weltschvitz
For now.
spiegelmama
in reply to Grutjes • • •iN8sWoRLd
in reply to Grutjes • • •Grutjes
in reply to iN8sWoRLd • • •@in8sworld
Fascists are gonna fascist.
Bluesky is collaborating, that is my point.
CathyBikesBook[MOVING SOON]
in reply to Grutjes • • •Kevin Russell
in reply to Grutjes • • •zetabeta
in reply to Grutjes • • •i was thinking something few hours ago and decided not to blurt it out of my brains. okay, now it comes.
bluesky, ready to be enshittified and trumpified !
william.maggos
in reply to Grutjes • • •I believe in a fedi for everyone so people should be able to follow the Trump administration here. like horrible people are allowed to have websites on the net and we can visit them in any browser.
the way it would work here is the administration would run their own server and people could federate or not.
the way bluesky does it, they are paying for infrastructure to allow them to reach people. and maybe running algos that recommend them. ugh.
Dr. Seltsam 🌎🎶🌳
in reply to Grutjes • • •auntie monkey
in reply to Grutjes • • •Grutjes
in reply to auntie monkey • • •@monkey
Maybe you could check something before "thinking" out loud.
auntie monkey
in reply to Grutjes • • •Alys
in reply to auntie monkey • • •@monkey
Being on Bluesky allows ICE to recruit there, spread propaganda there, and follow anti-ICE accounts to more easily get information about protests or people to target. From ICE's point of view, there's no reason to not have an account there.
Bluesky and its fediverse bridges are now dangerous to anyone ICE may target (which may end up being a much wider section of the population than currently).
@Grutjes
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biff52
in reply to auntie monkey • • •All the other alphabet agencies joined Bluesky last year. I've blocked them all.
Davey
in reply to biff52 • • •Grutjes
in reply to Davey • • •@davey_cakes
True, but the last thing we should do is accept fascism because there is so much of it already.
@biff52 @monkey
Davey
in reply to Grutjes • • •🔥 Mireille Sillander 🔥
in reply to auntie monkey • • •Rob van Kan🔻
in reply to 🔥 Mireille Sillander 🔥 • • •🔥 Mireille Sillander 🔥
in reply to Rob van Kan🔻 • • •Rob van Kan🔻
in reply to 🔥 Mireille Sillander 🔥 • • •Grutjes
in reply to Rob van Kan🔻 • • •@Mimesatwork
Fascists are gonna fascist. My point is not about what ICE wants with their Bluesky account.
It's about Bsky collaborating.
@edgeofeurope @monkey
🔥 Mireille Sillander 🔥
in reply to Grutjes • • •I was just asking Monkey there. I fully agree that BS collaborating is the main problem
@monkey
divVerent
in reply to auntie monkey • • •Grutjes
in reply to divVerent • • •@divVerent @monkey
Could you please stop spreading misinformation? What you feel or think is not interesting at all if itś not based in facts.
This IS ICE. It's not fake.
Ms. Que Banh
in reply to Grutjes • • •Δρομογράφος likes this.
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Grutjes
in reply to Ms. Que Banh • • •@PhoenixSerenity
Yes. Absolutely yes.
Ms. Que Banh
in reply to Grutjes • • •rewarp
in reply to Ms. Que Banh • • •It wasn't that long ago that even people like Cory Doctorow were (I hope it's past tense) endorsing that totally self-defeating money-hole project to bridge Bluesky to Fedi through spending billions to rewrite their proprietary protocol.
techcrunch.com/2025/01/13/free…
How do even smart people get suckered into thinking linking up with Nazis tech (but polite) would be a good thing?
'Free Our Feeds' campaign aims to billionaire-proof Bluesky’s tech | TechCrunch
Aisha Malik (TechCrunch)reshared this
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Martin
in reply to Grutjes • • •Urzl
in reply to Grutjes • • •reshared this
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Marcella Francesca
in reply to Grutjes • • •reshared this
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🎆🎉 Masto New Year 🎊🎇
in reply to Grutjes • • •Wow, great timing! I just deleted my Poosky account yesterday, after deleting all my posts, DMs, replies, likes, lists and media, which took a long time, especially my followers list. For some reason, Poosky stopped me from unfollowing the 750 users I still had left to unfollow...
Anywho, glad to be off Hellsite 2.0!
mega mushroom
in reply to Grutjes • • •LillaVee
in reply to Grutjes • • •reshared this
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⚝ Mirko ⚝
in reply to Grutjes • • •PKs Powerfromspace1
in reply to Grutjes • • •AndyW
in reply to Grutjes • • •I absolutely hate what Trump and ICE are doing to my community.
I also worry that we are increasingly putting ourselves in social media bubbles to the point we can no longer even acknowledge the existence of people or points of view we disagree with. America is in the shit right now. How do we come out of it with something resembling a functional democracy?
Dave Wilburn
in reply to AndyW • • •@andyw350
Color me unreasonable if you wish, but I don't think "we should have an unaccountable masked police force dragging undesirables away into concentration camps and killing dissidents in the streets" is a viewpoint worth accommodating.
My preferred path towards reconciliation remains prosecution for the ringleaders and worst offenders, alongside a truth and reconciliation commission for the rest.
But I think the more likely outcome will be something like post-Reconstruction Jim Crow America, where we forge an unstable and worthless peace too quickly with unrepentant evil, and allow that rot to continue inflicting unrelenting terror and atrocities upon further victims for generations.
I think this is the wrecking of America as a nation. Maybe there will exist the superficial trappings of a government and a democracy, but we are no longer united by shared values or shared interests.
Su_G reshared this.
Su_G
in reply to Dave Wilburn • • •@DaveMWilburn
Feels dark but realistic. 🙏🏻
@andyw350 @Grutjes
The Crafty Miss
in reply to AndyW • • •@andyw350 There is no space where we need to give a platform to stormtroopers or fascist apologia. We're not in a bubble, rather they need to be quarantined because of their ideology of hate and destruction.That bubbles narrative is based on normalisation BS that wants the Overton Window to look out over death camps.
No quarter for fascists or fascism
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The Crafty Miss
in reply to The Crafty Miss • • •@andyw350 And you're probably a reasonable person who wants to be decent and nice and that's why you're moved by the 'let's not be in bubbles and let's hear what one another has to say' vibe.
I'm not aiming to yell at your desire to do the right thing, but to warn anyone who thinks they're being nice and sensible, and working toward cohesion: fascists benefit when we treat them like normal, good-faith people we simply disagree with instead of as members of a merciless death cult
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IBBoard
in reply to AndyW • • •@andyw350 I think there's important context there.
If the disagreement is over whether more taxes or fewer taxes are best for society then yeah, that's a minor disagreement and social bubbles are detrimental.
But if the difference is over whether or not to run a fascist state that uses armed thugs to kidnap its citizens and whether some people deserve to exist then it stops being "all opinions are valid" and becomes "there is no reasonable middle ground and you are only detrimental to society, my community, and my mental health". At that point, blocking is perfectly reasonable because no good can come from hearing them.
Natalie
in reply to Grutjes • • •fabriziob
in reply to Grutjes • • •How can it go? Maybe the exact same way?
Dr.
in reply to Grutjes • • •i don't think the verification works the same way though, it makes it easier for people to know that account is legit and needs to be blocked. People are openly hostile towards the account.
also ice.0x0.boo/ (ice block tracker) is interesting.
(I wont say anything is an alternative, we just need to build our own circle for sure across platforms)
GunChleoc reshared this.
Grutjes
in reply to Dr. • • •@lucidillusions
The verification is not the problem, the welcoming is.
Bsky allows ICE to have an account with just the same argument as "if nazi Germany declared that it's legal to kill Jews, there's nothing wrong with it."
Bluesky has a moderation policy saying just that. They will ban illegal content, but they allow the ICE Gestapo, Vance and other fascists to be on Bsky, despite countless users reporting them.
Aaron Moodie
in reply to Grutjes • • •philip66
in reply to Grutjes • • •Alex
in reply to Grutjes • • •Leseesel
in reply to Grutjes • • •Disisdeguey🔻PalestineAction🇵🇸
in reply to Grutjes • • •FKFTSH
in reply to Disisdeguey🔻PalestineAction🇵🇸 • • •saxnot
in reply to Grutjes • • •Gid
Unknown parent • • •I think it's the algorithm that some people want to have. But that's also what makes it so weak to manipulation.
@realtegan @Grutjes
FediThing
Unknown parent • • •@wtwagg It's not about you or your feed, it's about the spread of hateful lies. Here's an example to explain what I mean, it was written about Threads but applies to Bluesky as well: social.chinwag.org/@FediThing/…
FediThing
2024-06-08 13:35:46
Deus Figendi.jwd
in reply to Grutjes • • •GunChleoc
in reply to Deus Figendi.jwd • • •Deus Figendi.jwd
in reply to GunChleoc • • •Probably. Isn't lies.social also a mastodon instance which is defederated by default?
They can verify over there ^^
GunChleoc
in reply to Deus Figendi.jwd • • •Gazzetta del Cadavere
in reply to Grutjes • • •Vysogota
in reply to Grutjes • • •Grutjes
in reply to Vysogota • • •@petko
Yes, thatś true, but Dorsey left Bsky in 2024.
Vysogota
in reply to Grutjes • • •AnneH
in reply to Grutjes • • •Mensh123
in reply to Grutjes • • •Grutjes
in reply to Mensh123 • • •@Mensh123
Please stop.
The verification is not the problem, the welcoming is.
Bsky allows ICE to have an account with just the same argument as "if nazi Germany declared that it's legal to kill Jews, there's nothing wrong with it."
Bluesky has a moderation policy saying just that. They will ban illegal content, but they allow the ICE Gestapo, Vance and other fascists to be on Bsky, despite countless users reporting them.
Axel
in reply to Grutjes • • •1. Would the community rules prevent this?
2. Would the account be active until a number of users would report content that actually offends their community rules?
3. If they can also verify prove access to ICE's official website - wouldn't it be "verified" automatically?
4. How many servers would actually degenerate from Mastodon's biggest server because of one account? 🙄
David Phd
in reply to Axel • • •As ICE's existence is to threaten violence, that should be enough to have it banned from Bluesky, never mind any Mastodon instance.
Axel
in reply to Axel • • •And if ICE registered a Mastodon account with a smaller server whose community rules would not prohibit ICE's content - how long would it take for servers that represent more than half of the Fediverse's users to actually defederate that server?
Just take sure I'm not mistaken on this issue: I despise ICE's actions and the political agenda it stands for.
I'm just not sure whether the Fediverse could guarantee a "better" reaction to an attempt to register an account here
Natasha 🇪🇺
in reply to Axel • • •@tetrapyloctomist
I've seen a major UK TERF account removed without any transphobic content (yet) at the threat of a Fediblock. I and a number of others reported them, with evidence it was really them. So I hope the same would happen in this case and more optimistic. It's why I'm still here.
@Grutjes
Dario Castañé 🏴☠️⁂
in reply to Axel • • •Truth Social, Programming Languages That Built It - GreenWare Tech
Greenware Tech (GreenWare Tech)Grutjes
in reply to Dario Castañé 🏴☠️⁂ • • •@dario @tetrapyloctomist
And which is defederated by every fediverse server with functioning brains.
Dario Castañé 🏴☠️⁂
in reply to Grutjes • • •@tetrapyloctomist I know, but it wouldn't exist without Mastodon.
The point is that we can find reasons to criticize any project.
Gryficowa
in reply to Dario Castañé 🏴☠️⁂ • • •Dario Castañé 🏴☠️⁂
in reply to Gryficowa • • •@Gryficowa @tetrapyloctomist That's outdated. There are at least two interoperating main networks, Bluesky and Blacksky, with an upcoming Eurosky network too.
Even internally Bluesky is composed by hundreds of servers. It's quite easy to self-host your account and offer hosting to others.
We can discuss but on facts. No need to patronize or berate for having different opinions.
Gryficowa
in reply to Dario Castañé 🏴☠️⁂ • • •Dario Castañé 🏴☠️⁂
in reply to Gryficowa • • •@Gryficowa @tetrapyloctomist You are conflating two things. Obviously fascism isn't a different opinion. There are fediverse servers hosting fascist or purely fascists, as other instances defederate them as soon as possible. They wouldn't need to if they didn't exist!
Bluesky works different. Blocks are at account level, the network can't really block anything at global level as they don't have absolute control over the accounts hosting.
ℛ𝑜𝒷
in reply to Grutjes • • •Dodo
in reply to Grutjes • • •haui
in reply to Grutjes • • •This is one more very informative and scary fact. The issue is that all people, myself included have limited capacity of remembering these facts.
@everyone thismeans we need people building short summaries to easily post about bsky if we meet an apologist. That is how you make politics. You need to have facts ready because the other side does!
Su_G reshared this.
B. Rot
in reply to Grutjes • • •DefiantSquirrel (he/him/his)
in reply to Grutjes • • •#Bluesky was always going to go down the same road as Twitter.
We need more bluesky users to move to #Mastodon. #fediverse
Trumtins Electro Shark 325ppm
in reply to Grutjes • • •FYI
Gesehen?
@Grutjes
Haken dran
in reply to Trumtins Electro Shark 325ppm • • •wiase
in reply to Haken dran • • •Trumtins Electro Shark 325ppm
in reply to Haken dran • • •@hakendran
... Show more...Meine Frage an Dich war erstmal nur, ob Du das bereits mitbekommen hast.
Welcoming und endorsing sind ja auch zwei verschiedene Dinge.
Nur soviel dazu:
#ICE ist nicht irgend eine US-Behoerde, aber das weisst Du ja - Du nennst die Dinge ja auch beim Namen.
Sehr viele der (auch US-)Kommentatoren, die noch alle ihre Tassen im Schrank haben, nennen ICE mittlerweile T****s SS/GeStaPo und ich kann dem nicht mehr widersprechen.
Verifizieren und Aufnehmen (statt vom Hof jagen) kommt bereits ebenso gebueckt rueber, wie all die anderen Tech-Oligarchen, die sich im orangenen Desppoten-Darm-Des-Donald eingenistet haben.
Aber das Offensichtliche mal beiseite:
Die entscheidende Einschaetzung von bsky findet in meinen Augen ohnehin eher bei Jonathan Haidt statt.
Ich moechte leidenschaftlich die aktuelle Folge von #HardFork dazu empfehlen.
So lan
@hakendran
Meine Frage an Dich war erstmal nur, ob Du das bereits mitbekommen hast.
Welcoming und endorsing sind ja auch zwei verschiedene Dinge.
Nur soviel dazu:
#ICE ist nicht irgend eine US-Behoerde, aber das weisst Du ja - Du nennst die Dinge ja auch beim Namen.
Sehr viele der (auch US-)Kommentatoren, die noch alle ihre Tassen im Schrank haben, nennen ICE mittlerweile T****s SS/GeStaPo und ich kann dem nicht mehr widersprechen.
Verifizieren und Aufnehmen (statt vom Hof jagen) kommt bereits ebenso gebueckt rueber, wie all die anderen Tech-Oligarchen, die sich im orangenen Desppoten-Darm-Des-Donald eingenistet haben.
Aber das Offensichtliche mal beiseite:
Die entscheidende Einschaetzung von bsky findet in meinen Augen ohnehin eher bei Jonathan Haidt statt.
Ich moechte leidenschaftlich die aktuelle Folge von #HardFork dazu empfehlen.
So lange bsky per Algorithmus die Monetarisierung vorantreibt, um am Ende xitter einzuholen und dabei halt auch nur die Faschsiten unterstuetzt, wie alle anderen Milliardaere auch, ist bsky eben keine Alternative zu xitter.
Und ich denke, das ist alles, was der OP hat ausdruecken wollen.
@Grutjes
Grutjes
in reply to Trumtins Electro Shark 325ppm • • •@populistensohn
Exactly. It's not about verifcation at all. It's about verifying and then, despite knowing who they are, welcoming.
Bsky will moderate, but they will allow Gestapo.
@hakendran
Felix
in reply to Grutjes • • •Annika Backstrom
in reply to Grutjes • • •ClearSky
clearsky.appSu_G reshared this.
Grutjes
in reply to Annika Backstrom • • •@annika
True. But (like you, I guess) I think that we should not shrug our shoulders about fascism because there's so much of it.
This is a new low, which luckily people still find important.
Hans Zelf 🇪🇺🌻
Unknown parent • • •Callalily
in reply to Grutjes • • •Su_G reshared this.
Grutjes
in reply to Callalily • • •@Callalily
Mastodon is a (very good) twitter clone, not a facebook clone. I wish we had better developed facebook alternatives in the Fediverse, but Friendica still has a lot of problems, barely any users and doesn't have enough (if any) active developers.
But that's a different subject 😀
Gryficowa
in reply to Grutjes • • •Grutjes
in reply to Gryficowa • • •@Gryficowa
You know there are lots of different servers for Friendica, just like Mastodon?
@Callalily
Gryficowa
in reply to Grutjes • • •gravedigger
in reply to Grutjes • • •Misha256
in reply to Grutjes • • •AndrewF
in reply to Grutjes • • •Okay, On what grounds should they have refused it? ICE is a US government department.
I would hope that they’d get banned if they publish misinformation or hate speech though.
Grutjes
in reply to AndrewF • • •@andrewf
"If" 😂
Please fuck off with this "It was legal in nazi Germany to kill Jews so I don't see the problem"-rethoric.
It is this centrist, privileged approach that got us here.
AndrewF
in reply to Grutjes • • •Do you object to them being allowed onto the platform, or being ‘verified’?
‘Verified’ doesn’t (or shouldn’t) mean ‘endorsed’, just ‘they are who they say they are’.
And really, on what grounds can Bluesky refuse them?
Malin
in reply to Grutjes • • •splint.rs/posts/bastion/
Preaching to the Enchanted
map[name:Malin] (Splint.rs)Mistake not ...
in reply to Grutjes • • •Bytebro 🇬🇧 🇺🇦 🇬🇱
in reply to Grutjes • • •Grutjes
Unknown parent • • •@wtwagg
Could you please try to approach fascism as a human being in solidarity with its victims, rather than as a consumer who can simply order something else in the store?
@lostgen @FediThing
e
Unknown parent • • •Jörg Seidel
Unknown parent • • •Try that on Twitter. On #BlueSky you are one update away from not being able to block anymore.
@FediThing @Grutjes
Allie
in reply to Grutjes • • •Grutjes
in reply to Allie • • •@als
I like Mastodon, but I am actually grateful that not all of the Fediverse is a twitter clone. I wish Friendica was better developed so we had a serious alternative for facebook as well.
Grutjes
in reply to Hans Zelf 🇪🇺🌻 • • •@hans_zelf
Come on. Yes it does. Don´t make me unblock them again just for a screenshot.
Grutjes
Unknown parent • • •@thejessiekirk
Yep!
Hans Zelf 🇪🇺🌻
in reply to Grutjes • • •Grutjes
Unknown parent • • •@verymetalsite
Uhm, waar heb je het nou over? "Judged by the Fediverse"? Dit gaat over Bsky en ICE!
Caleb James DeLisle
in reply to Grutjes • • •BlueSky was always doomed because they are centralized and therefore forced to essentially pick a side in every conflict.
Twitter is also centralized, but they're (now) centralized around a strong leader that a lot of people like. He still gets himself in occasional hot water with public opinion ("fuck yourself in the face" drama explosion). His leadership is not sustainable though, once he's gone there's no committee that can hope to get the same popular deference that he has.
BlueSky's situation is worse because there's no leader who people might look up to as there is in Twitter, Gab, or TruthSocial. They have a committee that has to make decisions and then when they make a decision, ~half of their base is going to hate them for it. And this will just repeat until all of their users have left.
Every twitter-like centralized platform is fragile in this sense, and the fediverse is anti-fragile because it thrives on diversity of opinion.
Grutjes
in reply to Caleb James DeLisle • • •@cjd
Yeah sure the problem of Bsky is that it is not fascist enough and needs a strong Big White LeaderMan like you
#block
DennisL
in reply to Grutjes • • •ReneDamkot
in reply to Hans Zelf 🇪🇺🌻 • • •kosatque
in reply to Grutjes • • •Grutjes
in reply to kosatque • • •@ninesigns
Was it legal in nazi Germany to murder Jews? Did Gestapo violate German law?
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Gryficowa
in reply to Grutjes • • •@ninesigns I don't know, but I know that in Poland (I live in this swamp (hiding Jews from the Nazis ended with the execution of the entire family... And still American films about the Holocaust are problematic (Like omitting the Roma...)
In short... Bastards don't obey the law, but you have to, because... Because they need to have power over you
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Grutjes
in reply to Gryficowa • • •@Gryficowa
That's my point.
Bsky can easily moderate ICE into oblivion, it's a concious choice to not do that.
But even if ICE did not violate TOS, the TOS is simply wrong.
@ninesigns
Grutjes
in reply to Hans Zelf 🇪🇺🌻 • • •@hans_zelf
Zucht...
Het gaat over BLUESKY, niet Mastodon.
Eden Linnea
in reply to Grutjes • • •boreq
in reply to Grutjes • • •Grutjes
in reply to boreq • • •boreq
in reply to Grutjes • • •zaire "fucking liberal" arcana
in reply to Grutjes • • •Grutjes
in reply to zaire "fucking liberal" arcana • • •@zaire
Me too.
Andreas K
in reply to Grutjes • • •Well they are a vulture capital financed centralised (no matter what the ads say) social network.
Prove me wrong btw, and setup a full blue sky instance that links with the main blue sky network.
Oops.
Mastodon is either use your credit card with a number of providers that offer Mastodon instances, or some fiddling with DNS, let's encrypt, and some docker containers.
See a difference.
It's the difference between certain European e-truck makers (were you can simply buy the
Andreas K
in reply to Andreas K • • •and the Tesla semi, which is roughly half a million production units late. And a couple of years.
But hey, nobody questions #Naziboy when he claims to be a master in efficient manufacturing.
With most of his products being late many years and half of his promised products haven't yet been delivered.
More like Master of vaporware.
Grutjes
in reply to Andreas K • • •@yacc143
Not sure what you're trying to convince me of?
Andreas K
in reply to Grutjes • • •One of my first experiences as a freelancer was for a VC backed startup.
The experience was an education, and the V I personally read as "vulture".
So my assumption is generally that nothing good comes from VC backed ventures.
Sashin
in reply to Grutjes • • •Gryficowa
Unknown parent • • •Hans Zelf 🇪🇺🌻
in reply to ReneDamkot • • •Hans Zelf 🇪🇺🌻
in reply to Grutjes • • •Markus Werle
in reply to Grutjes • • •Roni Rolle Laukkarinen
in reply to Markus Werle • • •Gryficowa
Unknown parent • • •Joana de Castro Arnaud
in reply to Grutjes • • •ClearSky
clearsky.appFediThing
Unknown parent • • •@wtwagg
If they're posting stuff that puts innocent vulnerable groups in physical danger, they need to be banned.
If they're not banned, then their posts reach those who haven't blocked them. That's the point of my post at social.chinwag.org/@FediThing/…
FediThing
2024-06-08 13:35:46
Adam Coté
in reply to Grutjes • • •Grutjes
in reply to Adam Coté • • •@adamacote
Nope.
Paul Brownjohn
in reply to Grutjes • • •Nyargalrohan
in reply to Grutjes • • •Kinky Kobolds
in reply to Grutjes • • •Grutjes
in reply to Kinky Kobolds • • •@KinkyKobolds
Ehr, no, Jay Graber absolutely pretends it's very different.
Kinky Kobolds
in reply to Grutjes • • •Grutjes
in reply to Kinky Kobolds • • •@KinkyKobolds
Well, yes, that's what I'm literally saying.
Polixgen
in reply to Grutjes • • •Sensitive content
There's more;
Bluesky known for censoring LGBT organizations, journalists who revealed corruptions and people who are critics of government in Turkey.
Here's HumanRightsWatch open letter to social media companies which mentions about it (while not sent directly to Bluesky). hrw.org/news/2025/05/08/joint-…
#Censorship #Bluesky
Joint Open Letter to Social Media Companies on Censorship in Türkiye
Human Rights WatchNicolás Alvarez
in reply to Grutjes • • •Grutjes
in reply to Nicolás Alvarez • • •@nicolas17
Please. There's another word there. "Welcoming".
My point is that even when Bsky verified ICE, they still allowed them in.
Of course verification is not the problem. Allowing them an account is.
Grutjes
in reply to Grutjes • • •Thanks for the many boosts & comments!
It's important people know that Bsky app collaborates with ICE & other fascists by allowing them accounts, even after they verified them.
(Verification is not a problem. Not deleting their account afterwards is!)
🧵
Grutjes
in reply to Grutjes • • •Now some people take the opportunity to tell everyone they are not surprised.
I understand, neither am I. You probably warned for this to happen, just like me.
But I'm not sure how telling everyone you're not surprised is helping anyone.
Maybe the important thing is not whether it's surprising, but how bad it is.
🧵
Grutjes
in reply to Grutjes • • •If someone says it's totally OK if ICE is on Bsky, please don't hold back.
People who say that ICE should be able to have an account on social media (or anywhere) as long as they obey the TOS, are the same people who think it was totally OK for nazi's to commit the Holocaust, as nazi law didn't say it was illegal to murder Jews.
It's centrists like that who brought us to this point, and I deeply hate them for it.
🧵
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Grutjes
in reply to Grutjes • • •But if someone expresses shock that Bsky allows ICE in... I think that's actually a GOOD thing.
At least it shows they care.
Hopefully they'll conclude they're better off organizing themselves at decentral, non commercial social media like the Fediverse. Organize to resist fascism & surveillance capitalism at the same time.
However, telling them you're NOT surprised, maybe even telling them how smart you are compared to them, isn't going to win more people over, is it?
We need each other.
KaKetelmug reshared this.
Hippo 🍉
in reply to Grutjes • • •agreed on the first post of this two-part thread and also the second. It is not okay for ICE to be on Bsky, but it is for those who saw it coming not very surprising, but then again if someone's shocked by it happening then that's a good sign that at least they're realising now and "lol I knew that'd happen" is not a great way to respond
We can't all have always known all there is to know about everything
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Grutjes • • •Grutjes
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo
This is exactly the point in which the Fediverse is far better than Bsky (Bsky is decentralised in their marketing but not in reality)
If ICE would make an account on for example BadlyModeratedMastodonServer.social, and they would not get kicked off by the server moderators, almost all other servers would defederate from that server. Just like we defederated from Trumps truth.social (which was built upon mastodon)
Communal action in stead of individual blocking.
Grutjes
in reply to Grutjes • • •@lxo
Taking responsibility and ousting nazis as a community, in stead of behaving like an individual consumer.
You don't need to leave the Fediverse if one server goes bad. You can isolate nazi's and cut their server from the global community, protecting everyone in it.
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Grutjes • • •so it looks like we're in agreement
I guess you will also agree on why your earlier messaging was problematic: it sounded like the issue was that they could get an account, and could get it verified, but these same affordances would be available to them with pretty much any ActivityPub-compatible server software, whether operated by themselves or even by some third parties.
the key difference, as you pointed out in response to my question, and which I advise you to focus your messaging on, is on how the server operators and the community would or could respond.
another IMHO problematic messaging weakness in the choice of use of the cartoon, is that it brings to (my?) mind the frequent nazi bar argument, that could lead people to react by leaving the space to the incoming fascists, instead of standing strong there and isolating them or pushing their hateful behaviors out. that association may be a "me" overreaction, because that argument's defeatism and manipulative nature often trigger me, and you hopefully didn't mean any of that, but it may be something to keep in mind
Grutjes
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo
Sorry, I don't think my "messaging is problematic"
1. You want answers from me about Fediverse, but my thread was not about Fediverse but about Bsky.
I'm fine with a short continuation into new territory, changing the subject a bit, but it's not problematic that my 1st post was not about the subject YOU want to talk about.
2. No, of course most activity pub servers would not allow ICE to make AND KEEP an account. Servers that do should be defederated instantly, otherwise yes, nazi bar.
Grutjes
in reply to Grutjes • • •@lxo
I guess and hope we agree on the idea that moderaters should kick ICE out immediately, if they would make an account on a server.
This, by the way, is the goal of the "nazi bar argument" as well. The goal is not to make space for nazi's, the goal is to not accept them at your table.
ChemicalTribe
in reply to Grutjes • • •Probably easier to make fun of them there though.
Shrug?
I've got better things to do of course.
Greg Spradlin
in reply to Jörg Seidel • • •.
If BS weakens the block function in any way, I’m gone. But I see no sign of that happening.
FediThing
in reply to Greg Spradlin • • •It's not just about you hiding stuff from your feed, it's about stopping the hatred being spread to other people's feeds and radicalising them.
Even though ICE has the most blocks, it's still only a minority of people blocking them overall. They are free to spread their lies to most people, and some of those people will believe the lies.
Also, even seeing the account itself not being banned from the platform while other accounts are banned gives ICE a sense of respectability, like it's something normal to have a government agency murdering people and kidnapping them.
e
in reply to FediThing • • •@FediThing @spradlig @lostgen People who do not follow will likely never see the account. Those that do see it are always free to call them out and expose any lies. This cancel culture crap is a big part of why Trump is in power today.
On every instance I'm on there are always people trying to get other people banned. This is a bad idea. At least in the fediverse you can always create your own instance for more control.
FediThing
in reply to e • • •"This cancel culture crap is a big part of why Trump is in power today."
This is abuser's logic. It's blaming the victim for what the abuser does.
"Those that do see it are always free to call them out and expose any lies"
...or they believe the lies and become radicalised. That's why these accounts exist, that's why propaganda exists. They repeat the lies over and over and over until people accept them as truth.
That's the real reason why Trump is in power, because of the lies told by Fox News etc. They know it works, that's why they do it.
That's why fascist accounts need to be shut down.
FediThing
in reply to FediThing • • •p.s. This is how it works:
1. Bigoted account on social media repeats lies about minorities
2. People believe the lies, become radicalised, spread the bigotry to friends, who spread it to friends etc
3. It leads to widespread discrimination, threats and even murder
There was an investigative report by @ZekuZelalem at thebureauinvestigates.com/stor… who found Meta's plaforms being used to incite violence.
Some of the people killed weren't even on social media, the problem is lies spread on social media causing bigotry and violence in the real world.
Facebook accused by survivors of letting activists incite ethnic…
Jasper Jackson (TBIJ)e
in reply to FediThing • • •@FediThing @spradlig @lostgen I could not disagree more. We both dislike this account but at some point you will say someone needs to shut down another account I might choose to follow.
That is my decision to make, not yours.
FediThing
in reply to e • • •@wtwagg @spradlig @lostgen
Maybe this example will make it clearer:
Imagine there was an account that spread lies about you. It told people you had done some horrible crime, and said that people needed to take action against you.
Would you be comfortable with simply blocking that account and allowing others to follow it? Knowing that the account was telling lies and inciting violence against you?
e
in reply to FediThing • • •e
in reply to FediThing • • •Grutjes
in reply to e • • •@wtwagg
Fuck this consumerist fascism-enabling crap. (Where else on the fediverse than on mastodon.social, damn)
Get your head out of your privileged ass and try to see that this is about protecting people against the Gestapo.
Also: check this comic about you
@FediThing @spradlig @lostgen
Grutjes
in reply to e • • •@wtwagg
This is not about protecting the world from you. It's about protecting the world from ICE, you fuck.
@FediThing @spradlig @lostgen
Grutjes
in reply to FediThing • • •@FediThing @spradlig @lostgen
I admire your politeness and patience to this person. I have none of it, I'd have liked to slap his face.
@wtwagg