Skip to main content


General rule of thumb: Every time an organization updates their terms of service and/or privacy policy, it is never because they have your best interests at heart.

Specific thoughts on this latest Mozilla action (blog.mozilla.org/en/products/f…)

Setting aside the "worldwide license" bullshit, the privacy policy appears to have broadened both the classes of data Mozilla aims to collect, and the situations in which they collect them.

These are not the actions of an org that cares about your privacy.

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

I'd specifically like to bring attention to the "To market our services." bases for data collection under which Mozilla now claim the right to gather, among other things, Unique identifiers and Browsing data - under which Consent is only considered if they have a legal obligation, and of course it's opt-out.
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

There is also the incredibly broad "To comply with applicable laws, and identify and prevent harmful, unauthorized or illegal activity." in which Mozilla states they may gather "all data types" - among the defined types include: searches, browsing data (visited URLS), content and any other data.

In support of nebulously defined "identify and prevent harmful," and in response to law enforcement.

That "learn more about" link just goes to a list of definitions.

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Pfft...

Bunch of lawyer-speak drivel designed to obfuscate that Mozilla has simply decided they can't ignore the cash they stand to gain from having more and more data to sell.

Joining Google on the ad/data sales evil side.

🤦‍♀️🤷🫏🤡🖕

in reply to lupus_blackfur

@lupus_blackfur
Baseless speculation. When we hear of them selling users' data, then you can doompost all you want.
Trolling used to take more effort.
🤦‍♀️🤡🖕
This entry was edited (3 weeks ago)
in reply to Saphkey 🕊️

@saphkey
🤣😂🤣😂

Expected response from a bio that specifically expresses "enthusiasm" for Mozilla...

🤷🤷

in reply to lupus_blackfur

@lupus_blackfur expected response from a furry who apparently hasnt ever heard of something as standard as a terms of use agreement.
This entry was edited (3 weeks ago)
in reply to Saphkey 🕊️

@saphkey

Um, have you looked at your own profile picture recently? It appears to depict a unicorn. Equines had fur, last I checked.

And no, terms of use are not a standard part of free and open source software. The only thing I had to agree to to use Firefox 1.0 was the Mozilla Public License, and terms like these weren't in it. Back then, people would have been aghast if even Microsoft were caught selling user data, let alone Mozilla.

@lupus_blackfur @sarahjamielewis

Sensitivityi reshared this.

in reply to argv minus one

@argv_minus_one @lupus_blackfur did you actually read the Terms of use? It takes only about one minute..
Do you have any complaints
in reply to Saphkey 🕊️

@saphkey

Why, yes. I complain that Mozilla is reserving the right to intercept the traffic between myself and the websites I visit, which is supposed to be encrypted and secret. I believe @sarahjamielewis has already made that complaint quite clear for me.

I also complain that there are terms of use, for what I believed to be free and open source software, at all. That is highly irregular, to put it politely.

@lupus_blackfur

in reply to argv minus one

@argv_minus_one @lupus_blackfur
you clearly have misunderstood what that meant.
Firefox is a web browser.. it is part of the traffic. It sends the data, it receives the data. How would Firefox work if it didnt decrypt the HTTPS data of this mastodon website??
It just states that when you type text into mastodon via Firefox and click Post, you give Firefox permission to do your INDICATED action. That action being posting the text to mastodon.

"When you upload or input information through Firefox, you hereby grant us a [...] license to use that information to help you navigate, experience, and interact with online content AS YOU INDICATE with your use of Firefox."

If you didnt INDICATE for Firefox to intercept that information and send it to Mozilla, then they wont, and you haven't given them the permission to do so.

Idk how more TLDR to make it for u

This entry was edited (3 weeks ago)
in reply to Saphkey 🕊️

@saphkey

“Us” refers to Mozilla, a company, not a piece of software.

“As you indicate” means nothing.

Mozilla does not need this kind of legal disclaimer to get away with making a web browser that does exactly the same thing that web browsers 30 years ago did with no such disclaimer. Mozilla would not have written this unless it had other plans.

@sarahjamielewis @lupus_blackfur

in reply to argv minus one

@argv_minus_one @lupus_blackfur
Ill agree that US probably means Mozilla.
But I still hold that "as you indicate" is meaningfull.

I think that one important thing here is that Firefox is no longer just a browser. "Firefox" includes a bunch of different Mozilla services that you have access to via it. That being for example its VPN service via Mullvad, Firefox sync account etc.
And all these services complicates things beyond being just a piece of standalone software.

This entry was edited (3 weeks ago)
in reply to Saphkey 🕊️

@saphkey

The Terms specifically apply to “the Firefox web browser”. It's right at the start.

If you'd have me believe that “as you indicate” is meaningful, you'll need to explain.

@sarahjamielewis @lupus_blackfur

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

This is far from the start of this journey, Mozilla have been working towards this point for many years.

A creeping corruption that I think has finally taken hold.

They themselves, say it best:

"Although we’ve historically relied on our open source license for Firefox and public commitments to you, we are building in a much different technology landscape today"

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

I need a web browser, I need it to be open source. I need it to be secure and maintainable. I need it to work in my best interests.

Firefox is no longer that browser, I'll be working to move off of it. I don't think there is an obvious place to go, yet.

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

For those asking what my current plan is:

I'm going to push forward on migrating my use of more complex web apps to a standalone equivs where available (e.g. mastodon / rss readers)

In the short term, probably tor browser to do more general browsing. I trust that team to be able to strip out most of the bad, and keep the rest generally locked down.

Long term: It's time to really commit to building something better.

reshared this

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

This is, what I tried to say about #Tor #Browser.
You need at least, a #Minimum of #Trustworthyness to hope, they strip the #bad Parts out of #Firefox, but you'll never know, if there's a #ZeroDayExploit out in the Wilderness.
This rules for EVERY Browser.
This entry was edited (3 weeks ago)
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Now trying out Tuba on Linux as a local mastodon client. A few rough edges to get it up and running (that I mostly attribute to my not-at-all standard linux setup)

But I think this could work...

ItsDoctorNotMrs reshared this.

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

this really isn't an answer for everybody, but is part of why I do RSS and mastodon and some web browsing in Emacs.

Good hunting with finding new tools

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Just wish tuba would have multi column support. It also seemed to get sluggish when left open for a few days.
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

If you need UX design, prototyping and user research, give me a shout. Even if you just want to bat some ideas about.

( micro cv: since 1996, IBM usability & design on distributed & mainframe and Linux at home + home built IoT. Enterprise Design Thinking trainer & workshop facilitator)

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Any reason not to choose LibreWolf? I switched to that months ago. I'd bet Tor Browser is more secure, but it's also a lot more inconvenient. I've also heard good things about Mullvad Browser, but it's ran by a for-profit company, so chose LibreWolf instead.
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Mozilla's decline and adoption of the tech broligarch thinking is such a sad story. We need exactly the opposite of the current tech world.

Proton is probably the closest thing to what Mozilla Corporation could have been. But even that is highly imperfect.

I'm just so tired… all of the time.

Buck Moon reshared this.

in reply to Eric Gerlach

@egerlach hmyep.. the Proton CEO was recently rooting for the fascists in the US, so even that has gone sour.

man, the state of the world right now.

reshared this

in reply to Marion Grau

@marion_grau @egerlach archived tweet: archive.ph/txuJ2 (andy yen == proton ceo)

huh, I was gonna link some reddit threads, but they have mostly been deleted. figures. also it seems the most critical comments are gone now, so it's not much use.

the guy himself also posted some responses to reddit, one under his own name, and one as "team proton" or something; but I kinda don't want to link to them if all the critical user responses to them are gone. but you can google them if you want I guess.

I felt his responses were "anti-excuses" of the type "I'm sorry you misunderstood my tweet", and felt more like he was doubling down on his opinion.

anyway, make of the tweet what you will 😀

in reply to bazkie, bonkwave superstar

@bazkie @marion_grau @egerlach
Please give this one a good read .... medium.com/@ovenplayer/does-pr…

Redditors managed to create a flamefest based on unbiased views on poorly understood topics, which went out of control when Proton PR folks didn't manage to clear up the confusion (something they're known to be quite capable of - making it way worse). Such flamefests are not that unexpected ob Reddit these days. We can hopefully do better here without going fully Reddit hyperbolic.

in reply to 🔗 David Sommerseth

@dazo @marion_grau @egerlach I read the CEO's toots, and his 2 horrible responses to the criticisms. If you find my loathing at that hyperbolic, I'm gonna mute and block your ass.

So, I'm gonna mute and block your ass 😁

in reply to bazkie, bonkwave superstar

@bazkie @marion_grau @egerlach
I agree with your read on the situation. He said that republicans were looking out for the little guy and better for privacy than the dems. He also said trumps pick had a great track record (false). When called out he doubled down and only apologised for posting his personal views on a company account. I began transitioning from proton immediately.

I will not trust/associate with trump/MAGA supporters, asskissers or apologists.

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

A safe way to look at these changes is to assume every Big Tech vendor wants to integrate everything with Palantir, and to make personal tech choices that obstruct that objective as much as possible.
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

> Long term: It's time to really commit to building something better.

How does that happen? Mozilla used to be the answer to that, but it sounds like now we need a community/cooperative foundation supporting a hard fork of Firefox.

Is this something non-technical folks can contribute to, or do we wait and hope someone with know-how and resources kicks it off?

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

> migrating my use of more complex web apps to a standalone equivs where available

That makes sense, but runs contrary to advice from @pluralistic to consider stand-alone apps to be webpages wrapped in DRM. Or is that risk mitigated by using FLOSS apps, I hope?

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

any thoughts on servo as a long term alternative? Igalia has web browser expertise
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

how about a non-tracking fork of Firefox like celenity Phoenix Browser? Its not as restrictive as Tor by not using maximum website anti-Fingerprint, so it can use UblockOrigin, >60 hz, darkmode..
This entry was edited (2 weeks ago)
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

its annoying that standalone applications may indeed be the best option for now.

A shame really, because web used to be a way to have platform agnostic products.

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

I think some degoogled Chromium builds are not a bad choice.

Also, there's Waterfox tho I heard it was bought, Idk, need to check it out.

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

I'm following this topic being a firefox user and slightly more than average tech/privacy-savy person and your point in using tor browser intrigue me but I always thought that the system on what TOR run is designed for very important use (dissident, whistle-blower) and a daily use would saturate it. Are things different, or changed, or simply I didn't get it right?
in reply to Tetrafester

@tetrafester Tor relies on a diverse range of clients using it in order to provide anonymity, it is important that people use Tor for all kinds of situations in order to provide cover for those who really need it.
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

that's something I really didn't take into account. I suppose then only streaming and other bandwidth-heavy use are not adviced.
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

if you're a Gnome user and can live without plugins etc, Gnome Web (Epiphany) is pretty good. It also has webapp support, so you could maybe bundle elk.zone for Mastodon.. (nicer than Tuba?). Qutebrowser is also pretty cool, but it's using Chromium, hence untrustworthy (imho). Servo looks promising, but it's highly alpha. FWIW, I ruled out Firefox a long time back because it's a Google funded project (hence no PWA support?).
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Remember the #RollingStones:
You can't always get, what You want -
but if You try sometimes,
You get what You need.

Use #Opera - it's good !
Unimaginable, what Work and Money it would cost, to maintain a complete Open Source Browser. Ask the #Debian #Community, for #Example, why they will not develop one. You can see a bit in the #Tor - Browser, what it takes to achieve this. It's #Firefox too, but it's the best, you can get so far. Or use #Lynx, a #Text Browser.

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Vivaldi seems ok. vivaldi.com/
in reply to Elon Muksis 🇺🇦 🇪🇺

@bhasic I’ve tentatively started using #vivaldi at home and so far so good.

I’m just waiting for someone to tell me that the dev team is lead by a Nazi or that the board is stacked with MAGA techbros

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

I've been enjoying the various "ungoogled chromium" forks out there like Bromite.
in reply to Mauve 👁💜

@mauve Using any Chromium-based browser gives Google leverage to dictate how the web works, which they should not have, because they cannot be trusted.

Chrome is the new IE6.

in reply to egregious philbin

@ieure What is your preferred alternative? Does your preferred alternative work for most cases and put pressure on Google? I use it because I need web apps to work and it is open source.
in reply to Mauve 👁💜

reshared this

in reply to egregious philbin

@ieure Yeah LibreWolf is a great option tbh. Is there a mobile equivalent?

I think Dev pressure is really not enough. I can't even do calls in slack in Firefox even though it has a decent WebRTC impl. I think a lot of it is lazyness tbh. But how can I pressure slack? I just have to open chrome for work. I'm glad there's at least degoogled forks even if they die off periodically.

Have you tried out ladybird? ladybird.org/

in reply to Mauve 👁💜

❝ Yeah LibreWolf is a great option tbh. Is there a mobile equivalent?

yes.

in #Android it’s not Fennec but ICERAVEN, but you have to use the FFUpdater app to have access to it:
f-droid.org/packages/de.marmar…

the app is brilliant in that it’s a one stop place for most official versions and unofficial forks of Firefox but also for the Chrome/Chromium forks.

i use Iceraven primarily and am happy with it.

@mauve @ieure @sarahjamielewis

in reply to Mauve 👁💜

@mauve LW doesn't have an Android version. I use Fennec, which is similar.

I'm aware of Ladybird, but the lead dev seems like a real shithead. Heard about this basically the day after I heard of Ladybird:

github.com/SerenityOS/serenity…

He's also an active blue-check Twitter user. Guy's out there telling everyone who he is.

in reply to egregious philbin

This entry was edited (3 weeks ago)

reshared this

in reply to Lianna (on Mastodon)

@lianna @ieure @mauve Ladybird has separated from the SerenityOS project and the problematic dev is now only working on Ladybird:

ladybird.org/posts/fork/

That said, SerenityOS culture may have been negatively affected by the attitudes of their former BDFL, who considered pronouns too political but not a Pepe the Frog icon. It may take time and effort to fully heal the community.

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Qutebrowser ? It's kind of best described like Marmite. You'll either love it or hate it. I like it for the vim like key binds and it's easily styled and gives the pages as much screen real estate as possible with just the small tabs showing.
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Would any of the Firefox derived alternates work for you?

LibreWolf or PaleMoon seem to be getting more popular 🙂

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Did you heard about Floorp? It’s a Japanese fork with supplementary functions and some privacy enforced options. Explicitly inspired by Vivaldi, but built upon Firefox ESR (and soon upon the regular Firefox).

Perhaps you could give it a try?

EDIT: OK, I read your other post and some others about the new “Terms of Use”. Ooof… Mozilla, why do you want to ensh×ttify yourself, too? 😢

This entry was edited (3 weeks ago)
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

i was using brave for a bit because they consistently ace privacy and security tests, but they had a memory leak last i checked and it kept crashing my pc so I'm using zen browser rn
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Between this and Proton... I just de-googled most of my life and I don't want to have to start again 😑
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

yeah, it seems they're moving in a direction that I don't want to follow.

They're still the best choice in the big players, but if a better alternative appears I'll be happy to try migrating.

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Abrowser is the default web browser for Trisquel, Trisquel Mini and Triskel.

trisquel.info/en/wiki/abrowser…

Trisquel it is Ubuntu deblobbed, and it is privacy focused and 100% free as in freedom.

No proprietary crap in that OS.

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

have you heard of ladybird.org ? It meant to be a real alternative to Blink, WebKit or Gecko. Was a nice talk at @fosdem :
fosdem.org/2025/schedule/event…
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Let us know what you find. My current approach is to use several browsers, including Duck, Firefox, and commercial ones.

So each one of them doesn't really know what I'm doing.

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

I use Vivaldi based on some cursory research, but I am not at all an expert on this topic.
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

This project might be worth paying attention to:

github.com/LadybirdBrowser/lad…

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

I suggest LibreWolf on desktop [1], and IronFox on Android

[2]1- librewolf.net/
2- ironfoxoss.org/

reshared this

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

I'm liking Ecosia, a lot! ecosia.org/browser
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

The best firefox fork atm:
@zenbrowser
Actually doing innovative things. And still open source.
See their website for info:
zen-browser.app/
@Zen
This entry was edited (3 weeks ago)
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

cue the ppl like @Blort that keep posting about that new browser engine that isn't entirely done yet.
in reply to Am I?

Given @ami literally @ mentioned me in, sure, I'll add my bit.

I NEVER claimed, #Verso is ready to compete with products from #Ad / #AI corps eg. #Google / #Mozilla. With both sinking into #enshittification though, arguing over which has the least awful browser matters less than building better alternatives NOW.

My suggestion is supporting a non-profit group, making a #FOSS browser (Verso) based on a fast FOSS engine (@servo) to get it ready ASAP.

What's your suggestion Ami?

This entry was edited (2 weeks ago)
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

I feel similarly. So far I use Firefox and adjust the settings to opt out of the bad stuff - after all, much of the "use of data" refers to mechanisms that can be switched off, or even are off by default, but they must cover the worst case. I've never used Pocket or Sync and don't even have a Firefox account.
To me, librewolf.net sounds most promising. They explain in detail what they modify and why. It will be an adjustment for me because I use NoScript so far, not UBO.
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Sensitive content

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Firefox TOS and USpol

Sensitive content

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Thanks, brilliant summary in this thread. It's a pet hate of mine that Legitimate Interest in ramming ads into our eyeballs and selling data about us to the highest bidder has become a standard way to not care about consent. 🤬
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

what are the alternatives at this point? I've (mostly) switched to Firefox from chrome right before Mozilla's headfirst dive into enshittification, and though I use vanadium on my phone (de-googled chrome), the only other browser in really aware of that is likely to maybe be an option is the base chromium project?
in reply to Wren 🐁

@Wren librewolf is anecdotally the one FF fork I've seen recommended the most. I have used it a bit tho it lacks a few of the niceties of FF proper, particularly around auto-updating
in reply to Krampus 🌰

@castanea_jo @Wren I just learned about Orion, which seems like it could be a good d alternative. It’s been developed by the team at Kagi.
This entry was edited (3 weeks ago)
in reply to Jeremy le fou

@leftyknowitall @castanea_jo @Wren Yeah, I've been solely on Orion for a year or two now. Still in beta, but increasingly solid, and fiercely privacy-centric.

(Like Kagi, they want people to actually pay money for it. But that enables them to *not* do advertising and privacy invasions the way most of the rest do.)

in reply to Justin du Coeur

@jducoeur @castanea_jo @Wren I only installed it this week, and I have enjoyed it so far. My understanding is that they are using Kagi subscriptions to fund it, and that Orion is meant to remain free... but we will see. The only thing that game me pause about it is that they say the code will be released as open source once it's out of beta, but who knows if they will follow through. (Please correct me if I'm wrong. I am not a tech person.)
in reply to Jeremy le fou

@leftyknowitall @castanea_jo @Wren Kagi has a pretty good track record on open source (they have several projects on Github so far), so if they say it’ll be released, I suspect it will be.

(Hadn't noticed that myself, but I haven't looked.)

Unknown parent

mastodon - Link to source
Leeloo
@nazokiyoubinbou For some of us, Firefox 4 was when they started trying to become another Google.
@Nazo
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

I will be sad if Mozilla has started moving down to the Parkside. I've used them as my personal favorite for over a decade, but I've been using Duck Duck Go as my search engine for about 8 years and I see they have a browser now as well. There are options.
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

in Europe they must still abide to the RGPD, in which the consent must be given explicitly.
Or they will be crossing a red line.
Waiting for Proton to give us a web browser.
This entry was edited (3 weeks ago)
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

I've noticed that these firms always mention that they'll share my data only with their trusted [and un-named] partners, but NOT with my partners.

(edit: put in key word NOT)

This entry was edited (3 weeks ago)
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

that sucks, but not surprising.

I may keep using Firefox though, but never donating again or engaging.

My hopes goes to Servo, an actual FOSS alternative for blink.

No hopes for Ladybird either btw, that's a full for profit thing.

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

for anyone who likes FF but has grown to distrust Mozilla you might be interested in librewolf.net

De-Mozilla'd Firefox if you will.

I use it on my laptop and its actually a much better experience due to my usage of Debian and Firefox ESR which has caused site issues in the past for me.

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

A new slate of Mozilla top executives launched these changes, and introduced Mozilla's first ever Terms of Service. It never had them before.
Unknown parent

mastodon - Link to source
bazkie, bonkwave superstar

@kelseying well..

time to get off of the internet. *switches the internet off* :blobcatsadpleading:

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Yup. And at the rate we're fed new terms of service by EVERYTHING it is plainly obvious that bad things are afoot.
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

It's even worse than I expected. They prohibit using Firefox to "Upload, download, transmit, display, or grant access to content that includes graphic depictions of sexuality or violence," which would include most of my comedy blog and most of the crime-fiction parody I'm writing. #Firefox #Mozilla #censorship
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

This is why I think the @servo project to replace Gecko as an alternative to Google's Blink rendering engine is so important for the health of the Web. It can be the open source renderer that new alternative browsers are built around.
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

It's pretty sad indeed. Do you have any opinion on forks like LibreWolf¹ which claim to be “built from the latest Firefox stable source” and don't have any telemetry built in?

¹ librewolf.net/

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Has anyone run these new T&Cs past an EU Data Commissioner?

Funny if Firefox had to be pulled from Europe!

in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

Yes? But now what? Run straight in the claws of Google's Chromium? I don't think so.
in reply to Sarah Jamie Lewis

I'm trying Nyxt, but it feels like someone has taken Emacs and put glitter on it.