in reply to Jürgen Hubert

You're absolutely correct, and I think it needs to be mentioned as well that you cannot ask each and every person experiencing this to sit and report every harassing comment they get either.

I was a moderator on a large-ish instant and we got _very_ few reports of such behavior. That doesn't mean it didn't exist - it just means that reporting after the fact isn't enough and people will just leave instead.

in reply to Troed Sångberg

@troed
Another issue is that some harassers use the tools of this space against their targets; for example, as mentioned in: logicmag.io/policy/blackness-i…

... some will set their messages to 'followers only' so that only they, the other they are trying to "impress", and the target, can see it. This, plus the nature of federation (not every post shows up on every instance) means that many folks don't even see it to report it.

in reply to Rob Ricci

in reply to PensionDan

@danpmoore @troed @scottjenson
I disagree, I think "followers only" is extremely useful, I have many friends on here who have locked accounts and use it a lot

It's being able to drag others into a conversation they don't want to be part of by combining it with mentions that is, so far as I can tell, the problem in this case

in reply to Max - Poliverso 🇪🇺🇮🇹

in reply to Jürgen Hubert

in reply to Grow Fediverse

@growfediverse

While more options are always good, "growth" should _absolutely_ be a goal for the #Fediverse .

A lot of people, especially small business owners, are dependent on social media for their income, and for that they need reach. If we ignore this, we are essentially telling them: "Go back to #Facebook !"

And I don't want to have a world where there is a need to Facebook. It is my vehement opinion that we _need_ to overcome commercial social media, and that can only occur if we can fulfill more of the use cases of ordinary users.

everton137 reshared this.

in reply to Jürgen Hubert

in reply to AJ Sadauskas

@aj
This is a great explainer post. And it helps me understand what technically is going wrong. Better UI and filtering of DM type messages would help people experiencing this. As would visually setting off DM messages more prominently so the recipient understands what's going on. And maybe more instances where DMs are disabled entirely until you reenable them... Theres a lot that can be done once we understand the mechanism of how this is happening.
@juergen_hubert
in reply to Daniel Lakeland

@dlakelan

I'm pretty sure it's well-understood at this point, and it's a matter of Eugen and crew expending effort to improve moderation and defensive tools. I have no doubt there are a ton of good suggestions on GitHub for this, and i bet someone has compiled a list separating wheat from chaff.

@aj @juergen_hubert

in reply to AJ Sadauskas

@aj
i think this is also one downstream effect of the mute/block culture of fedi - instead of calling out bad behavior, the norm is to ignore; mute; block. in terms of dealing with trolls and reply guys, this is great, but it puts marginalized people at a disadvantage. for new users, learning a platform that is more difficult and different than corporate platforms, their first experience with the platform is what will define their impression of it. the assumed mute/block default places the burden on the victim instead of the community or on moderation.
in reply to Jürgen Hubert

I never saw anything that caused Lexi Alexander to leave the fediverse, but I believed them. Too many saw nothing , didn't see a problem, and caused even more problems, even to the point of harassing them about it happening. This is a huge problem. I don't want to see vile stuff, and I usually don't. That doesn't mean others aren't seeing it.
This entry was edited (2 months ago)
in reply to Jürgen Hubert

".. harassment on the Fediverse, _take them at their word_ instead of reacting with disbelief or demands for explanation and elaboration."

Rather than "take them at their word", provide tools that allow complete inspection of the abuse by a moderator or moderators.

One-button tooling provided for the victim could construct a disclosure that provides for complete inspection, perhaps with controlled redaction.

Must be a mode, to capture in-process abuse that would be deleted.

in reply to Jürgen Hubert

in reply to Jürgen Hubert

' _take them at their word_ ' This is the most difficult thing for white people to let go of. With great privilege comes great need to cling as hard as we can to our pride and in my experience, in running mastodon.art as a safe space for the most marginalised people, in dealing with other people when trying to combat racism and anti-Blackness, is white people will straight up tell Black folks 'You're mistaken in your belief that what you experienced was racism'.
in reply to Calligrafae

The hubris is off the charts. The absolute gall of us. I have not found a way to counter that, that level of racism and the need for white people to be superior is so ingrained, so dug in, it is *incredibly* difficult to tackle. We make threads like yours regularly, we ask other white people to challenge each other and to call out this behaviour, but the progress is so slow and so minimal it feels like a losing battle (not that this means we won't keep doing it).