With the recent influx of newcomers from #Bluesky , it behooves us to contemplate what we can do to improve #moderation on the #Fediverse - something that has been a problem in the past, and is one of the major reasons why the Fediverse is not as big and as diverse as it could be.
The first and most important step is a cultural change - we need to be _aware_ of how harassment operates, _especially_ if we are not its target. Thus, everyone around here - admins most of all, but really everyone - needs to drill the following into their brains:
If you are not a member of a marginalized group, you are unlikely to ever see much of the #harassment they are experiencing. Heck, you might not even be able to recognize it as such! Thus, if members of said group talk about their experiences with harassment on the Fediverse, _take them at their word_ instead of reacting with disbelief or demands for explanation and elaboration.
It is this frequent reaction disbelief that has done more than anything else to harm the reputation of the Fediverse. Because let's face it, we are still a space that is overwhelmingly white and European/North American. If we want to change that - and it is my fervent belief that we should - then we need to take the lived experiences of others seriously.
Once we have accepted that we need to expand our understanding of how harassment on the Fediverse occurs, _then_ we can work out what tools are needed to improve the situation. Because I too often see the reaction:
"If someone experiences harassment on a large scale, they are not using the tools of the Fediverse correctly to prevent this."
This is blaming the victims of harassment for the problem, and not the Fediverse as a whole. And then we will have the same trainwreck as before, and the Fediverse will remain the same hobbyist's collective rather than the serious challenge to commercial social media platforms it should be if we ever want to stop the world's plunge into #fascism .
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Troed Sångberg
in reply to Jürgen Hubert • • •You're absolutely correct, and I think it needs to be mentioned as well that you cannot ask each and every person experiencing this to sit and report every harassing comment they get either.
I was a moderator on a large-ish instant and we got _very_ few reports of such behavior. That doesn't mean it didn't exist - it just means that reporting after the fact isn't enough and people will just leave instead.
Rob Ricci
in reply to Troed Sångberg • • •@troed
Another issue is that some harassers use the tools of this space against their targets; for example, as mentioned in: logicmag.io/policy/blackness-i…
... some will set their messages to 'followers only' so that only they, the other they are trying to "impress", and the target, can see it. This, plus the nature of federation (not every post shows up on every instance) means that many folks don't even see it to report it.
Blackness in the Fediverse: A Conversation with Marcia X
Logic(s) MagazineTroed Sångberg
in reply to Rob Ricci • • •@ricci
Yeah I got to admit I don't understand _why_ you can tag an external account in a followers-only post. Is there actual usage besides harassment?
@juergen_hubert
Rob Ricci
in reply to Troed Sångberg • • •Troed Sångberg
in reply to Rob Ricci • • •@ricci
Well I think it's pretty easy to claim that if someone wants to discuss someone followers-only they can do so regardless of if they tag the person or not. Same as with tagging people when you think you send private messages that suddenly brings them in to the discussion.
Might we ask @scottjenson if he has had the opportunity to think about the UX here?
My own naïve assumption would be that things would be decided by the "Post privacy" selection - "Public, Quiet Public (that no one understands), Followers Only and Private".
"Followers only" should - I think - mean that only my followers see the post. If I happen to tag someone instead of just writing their name that shouldn't invalidate my selection of "followers only" to also include that person.
"Private" has had the explanation changed to clearly spell out that anyone tagged will get the mess
... Show more...@ricci
Well I think it's pretty easy to claim that if someone wants to discuss someone followers-only they can do so regardless of if they tag the person or not. Same as with tagging people when you think you send private messages that suddenly brings them in to the discussion.
Might we ask @scottjenson if he has had the opportunity to think about the UX here?
My own naïve assumption would be that things would be decided by the "Post privacy" selection - "Public, Quiet Public (that no one understands), Followers Only and Private".
"Followers only" should - I think - mean that only my followers see the post. If I happen to tag someone instead of just writing their name that shouldn't invalidate my selection of "followers only" to also include that person.
"Private" has had the explanation changed to clearly spell out that anyone tagged will get the message, but I'm still not certain this has stopped all the mishaps where an existing private conversation between two people suddenly bring in a third when they get tagged in the middle of the text.
Unless I'm missing something with how people use "Followers only" it does seem like a very minor change to Mastodon that removes functionality that provably has been abused, a lot, for harassment.
@juergen_hubert
PensionDan
in reply to Troed Sångberg • • •Rob Ricci
in reply to PensionDan • • •@danpmoore @troed @scottjenson
I disagree, I think "followers only" is extremely useful, I have many friends on here who have locked accounts and use it a lot
It's being able to drag others into a conversation they don't want to be part of by combining it with mentions that is, so far as I can tell, the problem in this case
PensionDan
in reply to Rob Ricci • • •Jürgen Hubert
in reply to PensionDan • • •@danpmoore @ricci @troed @scottjenson
"I want to talk about how I am being harassed!", to pick just the most obvious example.
Rob Ricci
in reply to Jürgen Hubert • • •@danpmoore @troed @scottjenson
I will also point out that until Twitter, this is how all social media worked: the idea was that you were just posting for your "friends". There are plenty of people who would still like something that works more or less that way
PensionDan
in reply to Jürgen Hubert • • •Max - Poliverso 🇪🇺🇮🇹
in reply to Jürgen Hubert • • •@Jürgen Hubert
I've been in the Fediverse some months now and I'm astonished at listening about harassment: never seen that here (but I could see a lot on Facebook so I'm not among those that can't see as long as they're not harassed).
Could it be just a problem of some instances and not of the whole Fediverse?
Jürgen Hubert
in reply to Max - Poliverso 🇪🇺🇮🇹 • • •@max No - harassers on the Fediverse know how to do their harassment so that it is only visible to their victims. A typical example of such harassment is the "followers-only dogpiling" method:
mastodon.online/@mastodonmigra…
As I have said, unless you are in the targeted marginalized group, you are unlikely to see the harassment. Unless you are a site admin and the harassment actually gets reported to you, but even then you have to acknowledge that it _is_ harassment and not a "spirited debate".
@max No - harassers on the Fediverse know how to do their harassment so that it is only visible to their victims. A typical example of such harassment is the "followers-only dogpiling" method:
mastodon.online/@mastodonmigra…
As I have said, unless you are in the targeted marginalized group, you are unlikely to see the harassment. Unless you are a site admin and the harassment actually gets reported to you, but even then you have to acknowledge that it _is_ harassment and not a "spirited debate".
Mastodon Migration
2025-10-07 04:43:35
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Alex Keane
in reply to Jürgen Hubert • • •And like even if you're thinking about the tools, it's just lazy to stop at victim blaming.
"It seems common that people aren't using the tools that could help, why?"
That's a question that could help adjust things
Grow Fediverse
in reply to Jürgen Hubert • • •@Jürgen Hubert One thing that might help is if people who are involved with contributing to the design of the user interactions/experience did two things:
1. deprioritized growth as a design goal. Many of the features that focus on this result tend to bring growth for the service at the expensive of the end users. Problems like participants being in a constant states of hyper emotional arousal which increases conflicts, addiction which drives unhealthy interactions trying to satisfy the cravings, and lack of consent based engagement which hyper charges bullying, stalking, and platforming unprotected speech (also it’d be great if in design discussions ppl stopped throwing around the term “free speech”, because “free speech” is REGULATED; the US law you’re quoting specifically defines that some speech is manifestly known to cause problems and is therefor not protected expression, speech like fighting words, death
... Show more...@Jürgen Hubert One thing that might help is if people who are involved with contributing to the design of the user interactions/experience did two things:
1. deprioritized growth as a design goal. Many of the features that focus on this result tend to bring growth for the service at the expensive of the end users. Problems like participants being in a constant states of hyper emotional arousal which increases conflicts, addiction which drives unhealthy interactions trying to satisfy the cravings, and lack of consent based engagement which hyper charges bullying, stalking, and platforming unprotected speech (also it’d be great if in design discussions ppl stopped throwing around the term “free speech”, because “free speech” is REGULATED; the US law you’re quoting specifically defines that some speech is manifestly known to cause problems and is therefor not protected expression, speech like fighting words, death threats, genocide incitement, injurious denial of established fact, etc. Expect that I am going to dismiss any free speech related discussion in design principles that ignores this fact).
2. Increase semi-public and semi-private engagement as core features. Because they’re the more natural way that humans communicate. Not sure what semi-public means? You’ll understand if I find you walking on the street and point at you screaming very loudly to the surrounding passers by “HEY EVERYBODY, LOOK AT THAT GUY’S SHIRT! LOOK HOW WEIRD IT IS OMG HAVE YOU EVER SEEN SOMETHING SO WEIRD???” Now you’re no longer semi-public, you’re public. Everyone is looking at you. Semi-public was when you were quietly walking down the public street minding your own business, but no one was paying particular attention to you. You were there, you could be beheld by members of the public freely, but there was not an collective conscious moment of broad public intent to notice you. Being in public is not the same as being public. Being public is a state of vulnerability, risk, and lower personal control. Those three things are seldom desired by the individual as daily experiences.
What is semi-private? You’ll know if we’re sitting at a dinner table in a restaurant with a group of our mutual friends, and I lean over and very loudly say to you “YOUR ZIPPER IS DOWN!!” Our table is private, no one at the restaurant could realistically hear us. But everyone at the table heard me tell you about your zipper. A private way of telling you would be getting fully up from the table and bringing you with me and going somewhere secluded and saying that. But a more semi-private way of handling it would be just leaning over and giving you an aside. The art of the aside has been kinda significantly lost in online spaces.
Like essentially ditch the binary notion of everything is public or everything is private. There exist more fluid in-between types of interactions in human communication. So in design, lean into them instead of totally ignoring them, because there’s lot’s of good consent-based healthy engagement features to be mined there.
Jürgen Hubert
in reply to Grow Fediverse • • •@growfediverse
While more options are always good, "growth" should _absolutely_ be a goal for the #Fediverse .
A lot of people, especially small business owners, are dependent on social media for their income, and for that they need reach. If we ignore this, we are essentially telling them: "Go back to #Facebook !"
And I don't want to have a world where there is a need to Facebook. It is my vehement opinion that we _need_ to overcome commercial social media, and that can only occur if we can fulfill more of the use cases of ordinary users.
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AJ Sadauskas
in reply to Jürgen Hubert • • •A thing that often happen is the visibility of abusive posts us not set to "everyone".
So it's important to be aware that when there's an abusive reply, it might not be visible to you.
There are also some instances that take a very lax attitude towards moderation.
Now, if your instance's mods are doing a good job of moderation, posts from those instances will be blocked. But that doesn't necessarily mean they're blocked by the poster's instance.
===
The net result is often something like this:
1) A new user from a marginalised community writes a post.
2) One or more trolls from an instance with lax moderation posts an abusive reply, with visibility set to something like "mentioned users only".
3) Most users don't see the abusive reply, because their instance mods block the lax moderation instance, or because of the visibility settings.
4) The new user from the marginalised community posts about the abusive posts he/she/they has just seen.
If s/he/they is a new user, possibly not aware that post is not visible to everyone,
... Show more...A thing that often happen is the visibility of abusive posts us not set to "everyone".
So it's important to be aware that when there's an abusive reply, it might not be visible to you.
There are also some instances that take a very lax attitude towards moderation.
Now, if your instance's mods are doing a good job of moderation, posts from those instances will be blocked. But that doesn't necessarily mean they're blocked by the poster's instance.
===
The net result is often something like this:
1) A new user from a marginalised community writes a post.
2) One or more trolls from an instance with lax moderation posts an abusive reply, with visibility set to something like "mentioned users only".
3) Most users don't see the abusive reply, because their instance mods block the lax moderation instance, or because of the visibility settings.
4) The new user from the marginalised community posts about the abusive posts he/she/they has just seen.
If s/he/they is a new user, possibly not aware that post is not visible to everyone, as it might be on other social networks.
5) Here comes the replies from the well-intentioned users, for whom the abusive posts in question are not visible.
"I don't see any posts like that!"
(Your instance mods block posts from the bad instance. But even if that wasn't the case, the trolls set the post visibility so you can't see it and they can.)
"Maybe you should use moderation tools..."
(Targeted harassment of this sort is not something you encounter because the racists, transphobes, homophobes, and misogynists aren't interested in harassing you.)
And, perhaps worst of all, assuming the posts that are visible to you are all the ones visible to them, and chiding them for being too sensitive.
6) The new user from a marginalised community has seen multiple nasty, violent replies on Mastodon, from other Mastodon users.
And when they mention this publicly on Mastodon, they get dismissed or chided for not using the right moderation settings or instance.
(Again, if they're new to the platform, it's likely they not unreasonably assume the harassment they received is visible to all users.)
7) They not only leave Mastodon, but they share their experience with others.
And after hearing two or three or more people share horror stories about "that Mastodon app" where the racists say the most vicious things, and then people chide or lecture you for complaining about it?
Well, they don't want to join.
And I don't blame them. If I were in their shoes, and I heard that, I wouldn't either.
===
By the way, there are a number of prominent Black academics who were bullied off Mastodon in a manner similar to what I described above.
===
Some of this is up to the Mastodon and other Fediverse developers to fix.
But we all have a role to play.
And if you get nothing else from this post, please be aware and mindful that:
Because of the nature of the Fedi, not all of the bullying and harassment that goes on is visible to everyone.
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Daniel Lakeland
in reply to AJ Sadauskas • • •This is a great explainer post. And it helps me understand what technically is going wrong. Better UI and filtering of DM type messages would help people experiencing this. As would visually setting off DM messages more prominently so the recipient understands what's going on. And maybe more instances where DMs are disabled entirely until you reenable them... Theres a lot that can be done once we understand the mechanism of how this is happening.
@juergen_hubert
John Lusk
in reply to Daniel Lakeland • • •@dlakelan
I'm pretty sure it's well-understood at this point, and it's a matter of Eugen and crew expending effort to improve moderation and defensive tools. I have no doubt there are a ton of good suggestions on GitHub for this, and i bet someone has compiled a list separating wheat from chaff.
@aj @juergen_hubert
Hazel-Quercus 🟡⚪🟣⚫
in reply to AJ Sadauskas • • •i think this is also one downstream effect of the mute/block culture of fedi - instead of calling out bad behavior, the norm is to ignore; mute; block. in terms of dealing with trolls and reply guys, this is great, but it puts marginalized people at a disadvantage. for new users, learning a platform that is more difficult and different than corporate platforms, their first experience with the platform is what will define their impression of it. the assumed mute/block default places the burden on the victim instead of the community or on moderation.
Cainmark Does Not Comply 🚲
in reply to Jürgen Hubert • • •John Lusk
in reply to Jürgen Hubert • • •«hobbyist's collective»
I love it.
@mastodonmigration
seachanged
in reply to Jürgen Hubert • • •".. harassment on the Fediverse, _take them at their word_ instead of reacting with disbelief or demands for explanation and elaboration."
Rather than "take them at their word", provide tools that allow complete inspection of the abuse by a moderator or moderators.
One-button tooling provided for the victim could construct a disclosure that provides for complete inspection, perhaps with controlled redaction.
Must be a mode, to capture in-process abuse that would be deleted.
cobalt
in reply to Jürgen Hubert • • •unfortunately many people have no idea the demands on Moderators. So members who have been around long enough to know about the tools and reporting may help a lot on getting action. I’ve been on 3 instances over the years and I know where I’m at now is best and just one person who is Admin is doing a tremendous job with moderation.
Another thing I learned was to lock down my stream to “Request Follow”. That helped me a lot. I still vet every person when I get a notification. About 1 of 3 I still have to deny. Because my gosh, didn’t they read my bio?
How do newbies learn about this?
The one thing I would change is the way Mastodon has the landing page. Choosing your instance to apply to is too much for many people. Then the rest of us are stuck with a gigantic open enrollment Instance that is poorly moderated. And the Fediverse/Federated View is iffy and sometimes bizarre.
People just starting don’t know that their “Home View” and “Local View” will largely be just right for them as they follow people
... Show more...unfortunately many people have no idea the demands on Moderators. So members who have been around long enough to know about the tools and reporting may help a lot on getting action. I’ve been on 3 instances over the years and I know where I’m at now is best and just one person who is Admin is doing a tremendous job with moderation.
Another thing I learned was to lock down my stream to “Request Follow”. That helped me a lot. I still vet every person when I get a notification. About 1 of 3 I still have to deny. Because my gosh, didn’t they read my bio?
How do newbies learn about this?
The one thing I would change is the way Mastodon has the landing page. Choosing your instance to apply to is too much for many people. Then the rest of us are stuck with a gigantic open enrollment Instance that is poorly moderated. And the Fediverse/Federated View is iffy and sometimes bizarre.
People just starting don’t know that their “Home View” and “Local View” will largely be just right for them as they follow people and also interact with comments or faves or boosts. No one wants to have followers who are only lurkers or only boost but never post their own thoughts or content like sharing a photo. How would newbies know this?
Once I locked down I went from 300 people who follow me to 1,000 in a years’ time. I follow about 3,000. People knew I was legit, posted often and commented often. i have contacts around the world because I was so many interests. I now look at my Home View and see fresh posts day and night. Sometimes there may be 200-300 posts in a day. And guess what-no trolls, harassment, or bots; yay!
But newbies don’t know these things. Definitely “we” the people here need a plan of change from the newbie POV. Then Moderators also need their own plan of change for their own instance. Oh dear, then somewhere beyond that a plan of change from the Admin of gigantic federated collections of instances. Whew that’s a lot. But doable.
notsoloud
Unknown parent • • •If Facebook instantly vanished it would be a net positive, even if all those businesses suddenly had to find other ways. (Hey Zuckerberg, you could do the funniest thing...)
@juergen_hubert @growfediverse
Jürgen Hubert
in reply to notsoloud • • •@notsoloud @jsm @growfediverse
That's easy for us to say - us, whose entire income is not dependent on Facebook.
I mean, I still want Facebook to _go away_, but I think it would be a good idea if we develop the Fediverse into a viable exit plan for everyone who has a legitimate business.
Jürgen Hubert
Unknown parent • • •@jsm @notsoloud @growfediverse
In many regions of the world, Facebook basically _is_ "the Internet" for all intents and purposes. That's fairly hard to move away from, if you and your business are stuck in that region.
notsoloud
in reply to Jürgen Hubert • • •But if Facebook stopped, that would change.
Anyways, a completely hypothetical discussion, unfortunately.
@jsm @growfediverse
Calligrafae
in reply to Jürgen Hubert • • •Calligrafae
in reply to Calligrafae • • •Jürgen Hubert
in reply to Calligrafae • • •@welshpixie
It's not impossible to change. I mean, looking back at my younger days, it certainly took _me_ a good while to wise up to all this stuff.
But people have to _choose_ to change, and to try to be better. We can say that a change of perspective is needed, but true change must come from within first and foremost.