I gotta admit, I am loving how little of the conversation is just "BlueSky bad! Mastodon good! 🤡" and how much of it is "BlueSky is not ideal for Black users, but let's be for real, neither is Mastodon. We don't have control over BlueSky, but we do have some agency with Mastodon. How can we make Mastodon better? Where are we with improving the issues that make this place unwelcoming for Black users? Clearly, more Black users chose BlueSky than Mastodon. Have we addressed the reasons why?" ♥️🥹

Seriously, I count ~5 conversations in the improvement framing direction. I love to see it! Shame on me for having lower expectations.

I'm unapologetically backing improvements across ActivityPub and ATProto. I back Hachyderm/Mastodon and BlackSky. You can just back both teams! Nothing in the rules says you can't do that!

in reply to mekka okereke

I choose Mastodon.

I was already here before Bluesky and Spoutible came along. I came here from the dead bird site after Elmo took over.

I feel safer here. I can wield the block button a lot quicker here.

Plus I can use language that I don't feel comfortable using on those other sites.

Oh,and Mastodon is international. Including the Diaspora.

I'm on those other sites,but I feel more at home on Mastodon.

#blackmastodon

in reply to Ivey Janette McClelland

"Oh,and Mastodon is international." This is one of the main reasons why I'm here and not on BS. Pre-Musk Twitter was already overwhelmingly American, and it just made non-US discourse a lot harder because Americans would reply-guy with assumptions that it was all about them. Fedi is a lot more culturally diverse when it comes to nationality. That said, I am happy to hear that the racism issue is being acknowledged more, it definitely was a very ugly blind spot here.
in reply to Daniël Franke

@ainmosni @IveyJanette
I would not say that. I made contact with some awesome people from outside Europe and North America on Old Twitter by deliberately seeking them out, such as an electrical engineer from Kenya or a folklore researcher from Pakistan. They were actually out there, though the algorithm favored people from your own cultural environment.

Mastodon, on the other hand, has a user base that is _heavily_ centered on Europe and North America. I have been wondering how to change that for quite some time.

in reply to Jürgen Hubert

@juergen_hubert @ainmosni @IveyJanette
Here are some threads by @feralthoughts on the current issues with bringing in folks from the global south that I found very thoughtful and informative:

union.place/@feralthoughts/114…
union.place/@feralthoughts/114…


🧵 on how #Mastodon, and the rest of the #Fediverse, invisiblize the #GlobalSouth.

I have argued a few times that for all practical purposes, the global south does not exist for Mastodon, and for the rest of the Fediverse. But many people I interact with do not quite understand how this works in practice.

This series of posts is an effort to illustrate that mechanism.

(continues)

reshared this

in reply to Rob Ricci

@ricci @juergen_hubert @ainmosni @IveyJanette

This one is not on the "global south invisibility" problem, but I wrote a short thread suggesting that an option to prevent hidden abusive racist pile-on in the replies would be to allow only new posts to select a "privacy level". Every single reply in a thread or sub-thread should mandatorily inherit the "privacy level" of the parent post.

In case you are interested:

union.place/@feralthoughts/115…


🧵arguing that we should do away with “privacy level” options for reply posts (in case of Mastodon and Mastodon-like Fediverse platforms which follow that model), to eliminate the ability of racists to hide their abuse of black users behind “mentioned users only” replies.

#Fediverse #Mastodon #PostPrivacy

(continues)

in reply to Ivey Janette McClelland

@IveyJanette

Moderators of the instance you are on suspended my account there almost exactly a year ago for posting pro-Palestine content like the screenshot below and for comparing genocide to the Holocaust. Given the potential for moderation bias and intolerance here, Mastodon has not been any better for me than any other social media platform.

@mekkaokereke

in reply to M. Grégoire

in reply to M. Grégoire

in reply to Stefan Bohacek

Yes, @mekkaokereke and I spoke about to how best present Quote Posts and his advice had a direct impact on what we shipped. We're about to reach out for another round of discussions with a wide range of people (but I don't think we've contacted Mekka just yet)

It's so tempting to take the engineering approach and think "this feature will do it!" when we likely need to back up and talk about bigger issues such as culture and moderation.

This entry was edited (2 months ago)

reshared this

in reply to Scott Jenson

@scottjenson
@mekkaokereke
@stefan

Great. Just to be really clear. What seems to be the issue is a type of hidden dogpiling or 'brigading.'

A tight group folks who's purpose is to harass someone follow each other, 'the brigade'.

One of them composes a harassing post specifically targeting someone who they @ mention, and post it using "Followers Only" reply controls.

The rest of the 'brigade' piles on.

The post is only seen by the targeted person(s) and the harassers.

reshared this

in reply to Mastodon Migration

@mastodonmigration @scottjenson @stefan

I think I have client-side improvements for this that effectively hide the harassment.

- pachli.app/pachli/2024/11/28/2…
- pachli.app/pachli/2025/02/28/2…

I haven't received much feedback about either, so if you have any, or know anyone who would benefit from these changes, please let me know.

reshared this

in reply to Audun

No, it filters notifications about favourites and boosts too. It always allows notifications about:

- posts you interacted with (voting in a poll, a post *you* boosted or favourited has been edited)
- moderation reports you made
- broken follower relationships (e.g., moderators blocked a server with accounts you follow)
- moderation actions on your account

github.com/pachli/pachli-andro…
- notifications you get if you're a server admin

in reply to Scott Jenson

@mastodonmigration @stefan My other question is accounts like this seem likely to get blocked from your server for other reasons. They would have to use this trick 100% of the time to avoid detection.

I'm NOT saying this isn't happening. I'm just trying to understand how these accounts behave so we can find, I hope, an even better way of shutting them down.

in reply to Scott Jenson

@scottjenson @mastodonmigration @stefan followers-only posts require the *victim* to report the attack. Depending on the volume and ferocity of the harassment, the victim may not be in a position to do this (either due to harassment across several channels, or unawareness of reporting and moderation options).

As an example, I piled into this thread to help out with an example, but I wouldn't have seen it to help out if it were "followers only".

I can see the positive value in being able to restrict a discussion, but it seems like "all my friends plus one more" might be a dangerous model.

Take all this with a grain of salt, as I haven't actually been subject to this kind of abuse, and am privileged in a bunch of ways which probably shield me from having to consider the worst of it.

in reply to evana

@evana @mastodonmigration @stefan This is very helpful thank you. The workaround suggested is to have new filter that blocks all followers only posts that also include you. For this to be effective, it would need to default to being ON, which might rub many the wrong way. Defaulting to OFF means victims need to find and turn this on (which seems unlikely)

I'm trying to brainstorm other solutions that offer more protection (but I'm coming up short) Are there any others?

in reply to Scott Jenson

@scottjenson Not sure if I understand the question myself. Do you mean whether someone posting a followers-only + 1 post would automatically flag that post for moderation?

That's a tricky one. Now that I think about it, I might've actually received replies to my posts that were followers-only+1 (me). No abuse, just regular replies, I suppose the person wanted a bit more privacy?

@evana @mastodonmigration

in reply to Stefan Bohacek

@stefan @evana @mastodonmigration yes, if this is a server feature and not a client one, then my concern goes away.

But I can 100% guarantee you that there is a small group of people that do this for very positive and supportive reasons that will be quite miffed if we do this (which just might be necessary!)

This is why I'm trying to find other ways of looking at this problem. I want to solve it! Just trying to find the right lever.

in reply to Scott Jenson

@scottjenson @mastodonmigration @stefan I don't have good ideas yet, but a couple probably-obvious observations:

* New and less-technical users are probably more likely to completely exit the platform due to harassment
* Experienced and technical users will probably have connections and better ability to bring tools into play
* Followers-only specifically separates the participants from any other network than the original poster. This probably needs to be communicated _really clearly_
* I can see followers-only as a good solution for sensitive discussions, but you want the recipients to understand that the information is sensitive so they don't allude to it/repost it without that privacy
* There's a tension between privacy defaults and broadening the web of social connection and discovery. The most private default would remove a lot of the social network value, so you'll rarely get a clear "win" without at least some damage to other cases

in reply to evana

@evana @mastodonmigration @stefan Agree with your points but we're still circling around the issue of how likely this happens (and how)

I DONT want to imply I don't believe people that say it happens, I'm just trying to understand the broader flow, i.e. how can a Brigade operate in secrecy? It just seems very fragile as they likely do other things that get them banned. Have we seen a large scale brigade that worked this way for a while? What causes them to trip up? Let's focus on that.

in reply to Scott Jenson

@scottjenson @evana @mastodonmigration @stefan

> they likely do other things that get them banned

not necessarily? think of a messaging app that supports group messages. you create a group chat with your buddies and one other person. the person being added can:

- not accept the invite
- remove themselves from the group
- block people in the group
- report messages in the group

in the last scenario, mods do not have full context. the user has to attach any relevant context.

in reply to infinite love ⴳ

@scottjenson @evana @mastodonmigration @stefan but because there is a private aspect, you would be free to act differently than you would otherwise act in public, and your only avenue for consequences would be *if* the added person reports y'all.

so the gap here is that people aren't being made aware that they can/should report such harassment. i don't think doing away with private posts solves anything.

one thing that could be done is to filter followers-only like mentioned-only, but...

in reply to infinite love ⴳ

@scottjenson @evana @mastodonmigration @stefan ...such a change might be unexpected if not communicated appropriately ahead-of-time. in effect, it would collapse the "public"/"followers"/"direct" into just "public"/"not public".

you'd probably also want the filter to be a bit smarter about what counts as "unsolicited", because even public mentions can be "unsolicited".

and of course i'd be remiss to leave out my usual advocacy for allowing people to create explicit contexts which they control!

in reply to evana

Re: I gotta admit, I am loving how little of the conversation is just "BlueSky bad!


evana@hachyderm.io scottjenson@social.coop mastodonmigration@mastodon.online stefan@stefanbohacek.online would it help if selecting "followers only" didn't also include any mentioned people who are not followers? so mentions only are only shown the post and notified if you post publicly or if they are already following you.
in reply to Scott Jenson

@scottjenson @stefan

This was in another thread discussing the issue. Not sure if what it reports is accurate vis a vis moderator limitations. Could it be a GDPR issue?

"This technique is insidious in another way too. As a moderator, you can't look at non-public posts unless someone specifically reports them, so your ability to understand the context is severely limited. Sometimes you literally can't see the harassment even when you go looking for it."

sfba.social/@EverydayMoggie/11…


This technique is insidious in another way too. As a moderator, you can't look at non-public posts unless someone specifically reports them, so your ability to understand the context is severely limited. Sometimes you literally can't see the harassment even when you go looking for it.

@mastodonmigration @bitsnpieces @benroyce

in reply to Mastodon Migration

@mastodonmigration @stefan The "math" checks out. I don't deny this is happening. At the same time, none of us in this thread says we've ever experienced it. We can't fight a problem we don't properly understand.

What would help is talking to people/moderators that have had to deal with this. I have to assume this is a fairly common problem so finding people to talk to should be fairly easy I would hope.

in reply to Stefan Bohacek

@stefan @mastodonmigration @scottjenson
One option to prevent hidden abusive pile-on in the replies would be to allow only new posts to select a "privacy level". Every single reply in a thread or sub-thread should mandatorily inherit the "privacy level" of the parent post.

I wrote a thread elaborating on this argument.

union.place/@feralthoughts/115…


🧵arguing that we should do away with “privacy level” options for reply posts (in case of Mastodon and Mastodon-like Fediverse platforms which follow that model), to eliminate the ability of racists to hide their abuse of black users behind “mentioned users only” replies.

#Fediverse #Mastodon #PostPrivacy

(continues)

in reply to mekka okereke

I'm happy to see this as well, both in the sense that I myself tend to like the Fediverse more because the way it works makes more sense to me if I were to structure a decentralised social network, and I like to see it grow and get better, but also, I'm very glad to see projects like BlackSky! I haven't looked too deeply into BlackSky, but it looks like it aims to deal with a lot of the criticisms I have of how BlueSky is set up, and overall making a more safe platform for people.

On both sides, this makes me feel a lot better recommending both protocols for people, and I think BlackSky has good potential in keeping the good of BlueSky, but showing people who are already on that protocol the benefits of actual decentralisation. Might even lead me to use ATProto in some form. I'm at the very least curious about it :ablobcatheartsqueeze:

mekka okereke reshared this.

in reply to mekka okereke

a place uncomfortable for black people? on the fediverse i have never been in touch with a topic related to the skin color of somebody. to me - it simply does not exist. which is nice! …while in x, insta and probably all other centralized/directed/biased social media apps it is all about armageddon… seems the techelite wants to push the world into chaos. as they consider crises as a good business model to become richer
in reply to frocksupreme

@frocksupreme

I’ve seen a lot of posts from black folks who have encountered racism here, far more than would let me dismiss it as statistical outliers (no platform will ever make everyone happy, but if the people who are unhappy are clustered in a particular demographic then it’s a symptom of bias).

The thing that confuses me is that a lot of other marginalised groups seem to constantly report either positive or less-negative-than-elsewhere experiences here. I am curious why, for example, trans people seem to have better experiences than black people here. It suggests that prejudices against different groups are manifesting in different ways and that the tools for addressing the arising problems need to be different. I’ve not yet seen anyone articulating what the differences are though, and since I tend to see these things only second or third hand, I am not able to answer the question myself.

in reply to frocksupreme

@frocksupreme Trans people have more safety in numbers here than POC.

One very easy trick to hide dogpiling from everybody else is to make a followers-only post and tag the person you're harassing.

Also, white folx like us don't always recognize racism for what it is when we see it.

For the history, logicmag.io/policy/blackness-i… is a good read

On what you can do now, privacy.thenexus.today/start-m…

in reply to GunChleoc

@gunchleoc i never experienced racism on mastodon. and thats my point. nothing else. i am speaking out for myself not everybody. i have never been criticized as a racist ever before and which of course i am not. but i am surprised how aggressively some ppl. try to misunderstand & push it towards a wanted result. it completely misses reality & probably shows how unsuitable they are to be social on a social medium
in reply to frocksupreme

@frocksupreme Most of the racism I've seen here I've only seen because I follow the fediblock hashtag. Some pretty vile stuff gets reported there.

Without that and without following any black users, I would be completely oblivious of this thing going on, because my corner of the fedi doesn't get harassed.

So, yes, what you see depends a lot on your bubble.

in reply to frocksupreme

in reply to the esoteric programmer

@esoteric_programmer @dingemansemark i do not live in the racism bubble. therefore it does not exist to me. and any other person could do the same. then it will be gone for everybody! wouldnt this be nice? just go after nice other topics! start today and be a part of this new movement. make social media great. mastodon can. because there is no team behind biasing opinions and sending you threads into your timeline which you dont want to see…
in reply to mekka okereke

👋🏽 Black queer femme designer here – and newly leading designs at Mastodon. I've been asking myself this exact question since joining. I believe I narrowly missed the opportunity to meet you when you last spoke with @scottjenson before quote posts. Would love to connect!

reshared this

in reply to mekka okereke

imho, the fact that fediverse has more history in being multi-instance makes it better for this, even if the tools aren't there yet.

BSky is still more cathedral than bazaar, its ability to federate is mostly theoretical, so protecting people is still mostly dependent on Jay. Whereas "we protect us" is more doable on Fedi.

Not to say there isn't a lot to learn from BSky though.

in reply to mekka okereke

@lisamelton People choose BlueSky (or Threads, or Xitter) based on their goals. Those who seek to capture part of a user base as an audience choose the algorithm-driven-corpo-sites. Those who seek to communicate choose Mastodon, a Blog, a site they manage. The root of the problem for ALL of us is we’ve been trained to GAF about like count. That’s what we have to fix.
in reply to Jon_Alper

@jon_alper @lisamelton

You're literally on here not listening to a Black person that faces racism, about what you think is racism, while not accepting that Black people have a legitimate reason to not want to be in a place where dudes like you dismiss their need for community, and make insulting statements about why they don't want to be around people like you.

It's for the likes! That's the problem! 🤡

No. It's because dudes like you are exhausting.

Unknown parent

mastodon - Link to source

Mastodon Migration

@tomjennings @scottjenson @stefan @evana

Tom, don't think that was what Scott was saying. This is a brainstorming session. As such, all aspects of the matter are being put on the table. The first step is to identify the problem in all it's complexities. It's a long way from making any kind of priority calls or implementation decisions. Feel like it is important to assume everyone has good intentions to constructively address the issue at this point.

Scott Jenson reshared this.