🧵arguing that we should do away with “privacy level” options for reply posts (in case of Mastodon and Mastodon-like Fediverse platforms which follow that model), to eliminate the ability of racists to hide their abuse of black users behind “mentioned users only” replies.
#Fediverse #Mastodon #PostPrivacy
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Feral Thoughts
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •It is common knowledge that the Fediverse has a huge racism problem. Black users get massively harassed, and are driven off, never to return.
A common mode of harassment is described in this recent post.
gts.sadauskas.id.au/@aj/status…
#Fediverse #Mastodon #PostPrivacy
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It is common knowledge that the Fediverse has a huge racism problem. Black users get massively harassed, and are driven off, never to return.
A common mode of harassment is described in this recent post.
gts.sadauskas.id.au/@aj/status…
#Fediverse #Mastodon #PostPrivacy
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AJ Sadauskas
2025-10-07 11:30:13
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Feral Thoughts
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •Basically, an abuser replies with post privacy level set to “followers only” or “mentioned users only”, and tagging only the victim and the abuser’s followers. The followers of the abuser then pile on, with their own abusive replies, all set to “followers only” or “mentioned users only”.
#Fediverse #Mastodon #PostPrivacy
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Feral Thoughts
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •When the victim mentions publicly that they are facing harassment, other Fedi users respond saying that they don’t see any abusive replies, and blame the victim for being too sensitive, or for not correctly using the moderation tools.
#Fediverse #Mastodon #PostPrivacy
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Feral Thoughts
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •One technical solution to alleviate this problem would be to force replies to inherit the privacy level of the parent post. If the parent post is “public” or “quiet public”, then the reply also has to be “public” or “quiet public”.
#Fediverse #Mastodon #PostPrivacy
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Feral Thoughts
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •To put this differently, only a new post (the original post of a thread) should have the option to select privacy levels. Every single reply in a thread or a sub-thread should simply inherit the privacy level of the original post.
This will cut off the abusers’s ability to create pile ups in reply threads that are invisible to everyone bar the victim and the abusers themselves.
#Fediverse #Mastodon #PostPrivacy
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Feral Thoughts
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •Of course, an abuser can start a new “followers only” or “mentioned users only” post tagging the victim. But they can do it even today, that’s another aspect of the problem, and it will need other solutions.
#Fediverse #Mastodon #PostPrivacy
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Feral Thoughts
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •I also don’t see any advantage of the present model where each reply post can have a different visibility. If someone wants a different privacy level for their response to some post, they can always write a new post with the desired privacy level, include the link to the post they want to respond to, and tag the relevant users.
#Fediverse #Mastodon #PostPrivacy
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Feral Thoughts
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •To be clear: I understand that the racism on Fedi is a larger political problem—it stems from interpenetrating dimensions of colonialism, imperialism, capitalism, and all other forms of exploitation. There isn’t, there cannot be, a technical-only solution to the problem.
My suggestion in this thread will only cut off one particular mode of harassment. But I feel this step is worth taking, as one among many.
#Fediverse #Mastodon #PostPrivacy
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Jon
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •no question that this is an important harassment vector — and great description @aj . Another factor here is that because of the peculiar (and counterintuitive) semantics of “followers-only” posts here, a followers-only reply to a followers-only post can have somewhat-similar dynamics: it’s visible to the followers of the replies, and not to the followers of the original poster (OP). Of course that can only be done by somebody following the OP … but with follower approval off by default that’s not necessarily a huge bar.
As for the specific proposal … maybe? On Twitter, “private quote tweets” (a followers-only quote tweet of a public post) were a significant harassment vector until they prohibited them; followers-only replies have some similar dynamics. In general though all this stuff is complex enough that I don’t have good intuitions about it … social threat modeling or some other structured approach is reality n
... Show more...no question that this is an important harassment vector — and great description @aj . Another factor here is that because of the peculiar (and counterintuitive) semantics of “followers-only” posts here, a followers-only reply to a followers-only post can have somewhat-similar dynamics: it’s visible to the followers of the replies, and not to the followers of the original poster (OP). Of course that can only be done by somebody following the OP … but with follower approval off by default that’s not necessarily a huge bar.
As for the specific proposal … maybe? On Twitter, “private quote tweets” (a followers-only quote tweet of a public post) were a significant harassment vector until they prohibited them; followers-only replies have some similar dynamics. In general though all this stuff is complex enough that I don’t have good intuitions about it … social threat modeling or some other structured approach is reality needed.
FYI @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell this is a good example of what we were talking about yesterday of how even though the overall anti-Blackness problems are cultural, there are areas where safety- related functionality can also be useful. And cc @mekkaokereke this is a harassment vector you’ve talked about in the pastabout!
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Feral Thoughts
in reply to Jon • • •@jdp23 @aj @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke
Oops, my account is default public, and I am more of a lurker from the global south; so the peculiar dynamics that you are highlighting had never occurred to me - that the followers-only reply to a followers-only post will be visible only to the followers of the responding poster and NOT the followers of the OP.
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Feral Thoughts
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •This means a followers-only thread is going to be utterly broken, with each reply being visible only to a random subset of participants. And then it is common on the Fedi for people to randomly tag others, which will cause even more disorientation.
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Jon
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •Yes it really is a horrible user experience. It’s frustrating because Friendica and its successors (Hubzilla, (streams), and Forte) have long supported a model where the OP controls the thread - similar to blogs or Facebook - but Mastodon was modeled more after Twitter so inherited this problem.
The good news is that the changes getting made to enable thread-gating (“only followers can quote/ reply”) and the importance of Threadiverse compatibility both lead to taking a new look at this, and Mastodon’s work on quote posts sets a precedent for doing it with safety in mind.
@feralthoughts @aj @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke
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Feral Thoughts
in reply to Jon • • •@jdp23 @aj @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke
Yes, I know. And Forte is ActivityPub-based, so other AP-based software should be able to emulate that behaviour.
I think a technical solution to enable this (OP having authority over the entire thread) would be to route all responses through the instance hosting the original poster.
@osma
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Feral Thoughts
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •So... say, user UA on instance A writes a new post. User UB on instance B replies. User UC on instance C replies to UB’s post. User UD replies to UC’s post. UD’s post should reach instances C and B though A (D -> A -> C and D -> A -> B). Same with all other replies.
Of course, this will also give the OP the authority to delete any subsequent post in that thread.
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Feral Thoughts
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •@jdp23 @aj @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke @osma @ricci
I accumulated the scattered points I have made in this thread in a single thread at
union.place/@feralthoughts/115…
Feral Thoughts
2025-10-10 20:34:21
Feral Thoughts
in reply to Jon • • •@jdp23 @aj @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke @osma
As an aside: the need to tag everyone who is already participating in a thread (so that they are notified of one's post) is a major element of the broken user experience.
As it is, there are limited characters available. If there are a lot of participants in a conversation, half the characters are lost in tagging. Another 25-30% in hashtags. Hardly anything is left for the actual text!
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Feral Thoughts
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •@jdp23 @aj @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke @osma
So people start randomly untagging some recipients. And what we get is silos in sub-threads and sub-sub-threads with neither the OP nor anyone else having track of what’s going on. This design is incredibly poor, in terms of fostering an inclusive participatory conversation.
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Feral Thoughts
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •@jdp23 @aj @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke @osma
Ideally, every single user who boosts a post in a thread, or replies to some post in a thread, should automatically get notified of every subsequent post in that thread. Of course, so should the OP.
What I suggested in
union.place/@feralthoughts/115…
and
union.place/@feralthoughts/115…
may help achieving this?
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Feral Thoughts
2025-10-10 19:26:54
Feral Thoughts
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •@jdp23 @aj @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke @osma
What if someone doesn’t want to receive ALL the responses in a thread? For this purpose, I think there should be an option for any user to unsubscribe from the thread.
And the other side of the same coin: any user should be able to subscribe to a public thread of their interest, and get notifications of all subsequent posts in that thread.
Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •@feralthoughts @jdp23 @aj @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke
Feral Thoughts
in reply to Jon • • •@jdp23 @aj @normative @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke
As I write these multiple multi-post mini-threads, I keep wishing there was some UI to compose and post these threads in one go.
I hope @scottjenson and his team design this soon. 😃
(The new design of the Mastodon web UI feels so much better than the earlier one, so I know they are hard at work, and doing an excellent job. Just expressing a wish here.)
Feral Thoughts
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •@jdp23 @aj @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke
It seems obvious, at least to me, that all responses, and responses to those responses, should inherit the “privacy group” of recipients set by the original post of a thread. So if the original post is followers-only, all responses and responses-to-responses should only be visible to the followers of the OP, not the followers of the respondents.
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Feral Thoughts
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •@jdp23 @aj @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke
What happens if some reply post tags an outsider? What ought to happen?
Maybe tagging should be forbidden for follower-only posts? And replies should be forbidden from tagging anyone in mentioned-people-only posts?
Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •codeberg.org/shs/fep/src/branc…
@feralthoughts
fep/fep/7458/fep-7458.md at main
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Feral Thoughts
in reply to Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦 • • •@osma
Excellent idea! I have had this kind of thing in mind for quite some time.
Haven't looked at the proposal yet; does this also apply to responses to a response?
Say, user UA on instance A is the OP, UB on B replies to UA's original post, UC on C replies to UB without tagging UA, UD on D replies to UC without tagging UA. Can UA delete the posts by UC and UD, as per the above proposal?
I would prefer UA having that power.
@jdp23 @aj @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke
Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •@feralthoughts @jdp23 @aj @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke
Feral Thoughts
in reply to Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦 • • •@osma
In that case, one of the abusers can write a mundane-sounding reply to the OP, and then other members of the brigade can pile on in follower-only (or mentioned-people-only) replies to that reply, leaving the OP unable to delete those abusive replies.
I feel the OP should have authority over the entire thread.
@jdp23 @aj @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke
Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦
in reply to Feral Thoughts • • •@feralthoughts @jdp23 @aj @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke
Feral Thoughts
in reply to Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦 • • •@osma @jdp23 @aj @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke
I wonder how ActivityPub-based Forte does it.
Also check
union.place/@feralthoughts/115…
and
union.place/@feralthoughts/115…
Feral Thoughts
2025-10-10 19:26:54
infinite love ⴳ
in reply to Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦 • • •@osma @jdp23 @aj @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke
w3id.org/fep/7458 is for managing direct replies as you understood correctly. but there is a separate fep for modeling an entire thread, w3id.org/fep/7888 -- the problem in mastodon right now is that *there is no thread*. mastodon is assembling individual posts based on a chain of replies, with no real context.
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infinite love ⴳ
in reply to infinite love ⴳ • • •Feral Thoughts reshared this.
Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦
in reply to infinite love ⴳ • • •@trwnh @feralthoughts @jdp23 @aj @julian @scottjenson @alexisbushnell @mekkaokereke