If Trump Can Deport Mahmoud Khalil, Freedom of Speech Is Dead
https://theintercept.com/2025/03/10/mahmoud-khalil-palestine-columbia-immigration-deport/?utm_source=flipboard&utm_medium=activitypub
Posted into Justice @justice-TheIntercept
It’s illegal to deport people for political speech, but that’s exactly what ICE is trying to do to this Palestinian Columbia student.Natasha Lennard (The Intercept)
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Israel's founding myth of "making the desert bloom" could only work if it eliminated all traces of the society that came before it. That's why Zionism has always sought to erase the Palestinian people, from the Nakba to the genocide in Gaza.
mondoweiss.net/2025/03/making-…
#Palestine #Israel #Gaza
@palestine @israel
Israel’s founding myth of “making the desert bloom” could only work if it eliminated all traces of the society that came before it. That’s why Zionism has always sought to erase the Palestinian people, from the Nakba to the genocide in Gaza.Sara el-Solh (Mondoweiss)
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Qatar has called for intensified international efforts to bring all Israeli nuclear facilities under the safeguards of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and for Israel to join the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT) treaty.
Al Hammadi pointed out that all Middle Eastern countries, except Israel, are parties to the NPT and have effective safeguard agreements with the agency.
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The Federation of American Scientists estimates that Israel has about 90 nuclear warheads in what the federation says is one of the world’s most secretive nuclear programmes.
Donald Trump is threatening to kill my family. Will the world stop him?
aljazeera.com/opinions/2025/3/…
No, this is not just a “warning”, another “controversial” statement by the US president.Ahmed Najar (Al Jazeera)
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Happy International Women's Day from #GoblinTheCat!
He knows nothing of current mews or world events, and as such, he doesn't understand that women's rights are under scrutiny or threat. I envy him sometimes.
Women (talking about trans women too) deserve better.
#Caturday #internationalwomensday #pets #cats #CatsOfMastodon
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Our boy Peck really likes to live on the edge. 😄
Happy #Caturday to all!
#Peck #BlackCat #ChatNoir #Cats #Cat #CatsOfMastodon #CatsOfFediverse #Catstodon #MastoCats #FediCats #AdoptDontShop #Katzen #Pets #Pet #Animals #Gatos #Cute #Chat
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" ... draw me like one of your French girls."
We're not sure how he managed to get up there without tipping the whole thing over. 😂
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A pro-Palestine group has vandalised parts of #Trump's Turnberry golf resort in Scotland.
#Palestine Action posted photographs on social media showing red paint daubed across one of the buildings at the Ayrshire course.
The words "#Gaza is not for sale" are sprayed across one green & another green appears to have been dug up.
#geopolitics #USexpansionism #USpol #Israel #war #MiddleEast
bbc.com/news/articles/cr52q7l6…
Police Scotland is investigating the incident at the Ayshire resort owned by the Trump Organisation.Craig Williams (BBC News)
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#Trump caused widespread international criticism after repeatedly proposing to empty the #Gaza strip of all #Palestinians & turn the area into a resort.
He proposed taking ownership of the Gaza Strip & redeveloping it, after saying earlier that Palestinians should move out of the region.
"The US will take over the Gaza Strip & we will do a job with it too," Trump said during a joint conference w/ #Israel’s PM Benjamin #Netanyahu last month.
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(Via /r/Scotland)
Cumbernauld.
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@nblr@chaos.social let me guess you don't live in one of the five new federal states or you wouldn't post such feckless shit. You are basically claiming the 70% _not_ voting for AfD deserve to be annexed by Putin.
Get bent.
And yes, this is _exactly_ why 35 years after re-unification, people living in East Germany still believbe the West German population by and large is a sack of elitist shitbags.
I'd say Limburg...
(but seriously)
This is a great point, People keep shouting this...
And i always wonder if they would have shouted the same in WW2?
I mean if so then Pearl harbor would be Japanese now...
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most of us probably have some internal list.
that list's also likely to contain places that would see invading tanks up on bricks with the tracks gone after a mile tops...
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donny is going to give alaska to putin
no bombing necessary
as a gift
The same question already was asked 10 years ago.
But back then it was only Crimea, now the Putler has added Dunbas and Luhansk.
And on his (known) shopping liste are the baltic states, Poland, Eastern Germany, etc.
@dashdsrdash
Agreed.
But I think they were asking about territory that Putin doesn't already control.
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Well it did ... 70 odd years ago lol
Most of that site is now a charming council estate called Roundshaw
The problem isn’t just about giving up the #territories.
Where did #Putin say that this would be enough?
1. Transfer territories not yet occupied to #Russia.
2. Reduce the #army to 60000.
3. De-ukrainizate.
4. No #NATO.
5. New government.
6. #Russian is official language.
Now, apply these demands to your own country.
Now think about this: Ukraine's military personnel exceed 1 million. What about your country? Would it be difficult for Putin or his successor to take over your country?
Boise, Idaho.
I’ve lived there. If you switched flags fast enough, the locals wouldn’t even notice the change.
I get your point, but in the scenario you describe, the only reason not to abandon the reddest states to #Putin is that he’d immediately start eyeballing the rest of the country…
…which, of course, is why we need to defend #Ukraine
Saxony, Thuringia, Bavaria
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If in the USA I would say Washington, D.C. (after giving poor and minority residents a chance to relocate elsewhere). And if that's not enough, maybe the most right-leaning parts of Florida and Texas. And if that's still not enough, there are plenty of red states... 😈
(Just kidding... but in certain countries half the people probably would not mind getting rid of certain other parts that contain mostly people of opposing political ideology.)
Scientists need to acknowledge that fact—and to act on it in these most dire of timesScientific American
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Let's not keep making the mistake of assuming Trump's tweets have force of law. He's just talking out of his ass again, just like he's not actually invading greenland and canada. Notice how he's talking about at least 4 different actions here, I'm pretty sure none of which he can actually do. 5 if you count thanking us for our attention to this matter (?). If Trump tries to do anything in this regard no judge* will uphold it.
*Obligatory other than Clarence Thomas
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Let's not keep making the mistake of assuming the rule of law matters at this point. If he does something and nobody stops it, its legality or lack there of is moot. If he says to do something and people do it and nobody stops him (or judge's rulings about it are ignored), then it doesn't matter that it was illegal.
I know you're just trying to get people to calm down, but at this point, people are right to be scared and right to think these things could actually come to pass considering it has happened before. Maybe it won't get that far... But plenty has already happened that should never have happened, and the US currently has a president who is illegally, specifically unconstitutionally, holding office and was allowed to be sworn in anyway, so it's probably not a good idea to assume this won't happen just because it's also unconstitutional.
Hey remember that wall that didn’t get built?
The fact that no one is trolling him about it shows how people are weirdly compliant about all this.
God I hope not.
EDIT - It's real.
All Federal Funding will STOP for any College, School, or University that allows illegal protests. Agitators will be imprisoned/or permanently sent back to the country from which they came.Truth Social
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There's a lot of things he's not supposed to be able to do.
Until America actually does anything about it; he's got free rein to do whatever the hell he wants.
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Yeah a lot of states passed "you must carry a doctor's note to wear a mask in public" laws during COVID.
I've written to my Republican state lawmaker only to receive a form reply.
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Masks are for hiding your identity.
But perhaps the double context is intentional.
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At this point and with all these new and ilogical rules, Trump is basically Dolores Umbridge!
We need a giant to take him down!
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They only had $1,500,000,00 to spend on Biden/Harris....
How is that supposed to counter the majority of Dem voters not wanting the Dem candidate?
What are they supposed to do?
Run a fair primary, back the winning candidate in the general, and stop bankrupting state parties?!
George Clooney doesn't eat dinner for free ya know....
There are no mental gymnastics, and unless you've been absent in the debate since it began in 2023, it's been one conversation regarding the direction of the Democratic party, with effectively two camps.
The first camp, effectively taking the party line and acting as cheerleaders of the DNC, have taken a "No critisism of the Democratic Party is acceptable; voters need to move to the positions of the DNC" approach.
The second camp took a "The DNC needs to be better and acknowledge it's shortcomings, and make changes when necessary. The DNC needs to align itself with DNC voters and the party base."
The first camp, for the first 8 months of 2024, insisted we had to run Joe Biden. That there were no other possibilities, options, or potential outcomes. They defended the approach the DNC took to the primary process, which was by any measure, the least democratic primary they party had ever held.
The second camp raged at the preposterous farce which was the DNC primary. They pointed out that Bidens poll numbers were so bad he basically had no chance of winning. That by insisting on this losing strategy we were losing critical time.
Bans were made, here, regarding this debate. And the first camp was wrong. There was another way possible.
After the candidates were swapped the first camp further insured that people just needed to move to where the DNC was, after taking effectively a pro genocide, Republican lite campaign philosophy as an outcome of the convention.
The second camp pointed out that this would lose the DNC the election, that we needed our focus to be on moving the candidate to a more popular, more electable position.
The first camp won the argument and lost us all the war, because their fundamental belief in what is being argued and whom they are arguing with is wrong. The first camp is responsible for the millions of votes difference between Kamala and Biden, because they insisted on this losing strategy.
That division is much, much older. The beltway is full of people who benefit from corporations or come from wealthy families and are materially aligned against the working class, and their ideology reflects this. These people as a group stand to lose more from the democrats moving to the left and hurting the bourgeoisie than winning than staying in the middle and losing.
This is a common dynamic historically; liberals in power need the people to maintain power, but their interests aren't aligned with the people, so they pass policies that marginalize their own base of support, and so the conservatives take power and then do counterrevolution.
I'm sure the first camp exists, but you should not imply that everyone who voted Democrat and wanted people to vote Democrat was that. I did that, and I encourage everyone to criticize their horrible decisions and actions, of which there are depressingly many.
I'd love it if we pressured them to not be quite as horrible, but at the same time I did not want the Republican party to win control because I knew they'd be worse for people in almost every way. And now, as a trans person, I have to worry about what I won't be allowed to do anymore, or how they'll try to make my life worse just for existing. Sending a signal or whatever you think Democrats losing does does not justify the new shit minorities will face now.
Sending a signal or whatever you think Democrats losing does does not justify the new shit minorities will face now.
I just want to point out, that you are making this about me as the rhetorician, when I haven't even weighed in with my position. Its not me you are arguing with when it comes to the application of strategy; its the millions of voters for whom them sacrificing their ideals to get a milquetoast Democrat, pro-genoicde, draconian border policy, democrat into office doesn't work.
This is about a basic understanding of how the table is set, and no amount of willing the environment one finds themselves in changes that. Its like '16 Hillary supporters whining about winning the popular vote. The people who were out their using the argument of "strategic voting" to shield the candidates deeply unpopular positions among democratic voters did real significant harm this election cycle. If your strategy doesn't or can't result in a specific outcome, can we really call it strategic?
My point is that the chiding of voters for not doing the job of the candidate is a way of morally washing ones hands of a strategy that genuinely hurt the candidates ability to get elected.
Yeah, I've given some thought to what I'll do in the next election cycle, and I just don't know. I can wish that people would think like me, but I've seen enough evidence from several elections that that's not gonna happen.
That makes me feel a bit hopeless, that we're doomed to the worst politicians winning and ratcheting the US further right, and that I will not be safe to live here for a long time. I know there's organizations I can get involved with, but I really struggle to commit time to anything, and I just feel isolated from everyone (yay social atomization). I think my best bet is giving up the fight and just leaving the country.
This is fucking despicable.
We have a 2 party system. Does that suck? Yes.
Should we fight to change it? Yes.
Does that give anyone an excuse for helping elect a fascist, racist, xenophobic, physchopath who is in the pocket of a foreign enemy leader by not voting for Kamala?? Fuck no. You're out of your mind.
within the context of federal elections as operated in 2024, it's certainly not the fucking fault of the people who were able to recognize that letting Putin's puppet in the office of the president for a second time to subsequently leave Ukraine to fend for itself and to ensure a genocide in Palestine was the worse of the 2 possible outcomes.
Giving in and voting center left establishment to ensure a win is a much better poison than what we have now. anyone who says otherwise is trying to "morally wash their hands" of the blood that's being spilled in Ukraine and Gaza and domestically.
The people who didn't vote because the DNC chose an establishment dem to replace Biden are narcissistic or stupid.
Trans people, gay people, immigrants, women, elderly people on social security fixed income, 1000s of workers in industries who will face layoffs in the face of these tariffs, farmers who are losing 2 billion (40% of the food USAID gives out comes from purchases from us farmers) in USAID food purchases per year, children whose education will be forever altered will all be much happier knowing those self righteous progressives stuck to their guns and didn't compromise their morals as they get persecuted under this administration.
WELL FUCKING DONE GUYS. Don't break your arms jacking yourselves off.
You aren't arguing with me. You are arguing with the millions of people who found your rhetoric insufficient and a pro genocide stance unacceptable.
If you want to continue to be the party of "loser Democrats", just keep doing and thinking acting the same way you are presenting yourself in that comment.
When you behaved this way, when this was the rhetoric you used to convince people to vote Democrat, you did real fucking damage, and are in some small way responsible for Trump.
When your "strategy" has the obvious and demonstrated result of the opposite effect to what you want, it's not strategic.
You genuinely have brain damage.
I didn't attack you in my comment did I? Unless you were one of the holdouts... I attacked them directly.
It's like a child who has been poisoned. We have the antidote in our possession but we are arguing because it happens to be a cookie. and one parent is afraid the child will feel rewarded for poisoning itself and the other wants to save the fucking child and deal with everything else after that.
You have to decide between the emotional feeling of being "right" you seem committed to, and winning elections.
You don't get to have both.
It isn't hard to be right. The answer is obvious to anyone who can think.
I'm emotional about how stupid other people have acted over this election.
The answer is obvious to anyone who can think.
I mean obviously not because you still haven't caught on. Your argument, your approach to electoralism: Its why the Democrats lost. You "won" the argument from the period of January 2024 until November 2024. There are bans here, on lemmy, still in place from those who shared your view and used their power to silence challenging that strategy or narrative. Reddit too. It was ubiquitous across media.
The wages we earned on your behalf because of your complete arrogance and stupidity was Trump. And you are being singled out because you are here, but to be sure, you weren't alone in this hubris. All of mainstream media, almost all but the truly "left of the left" media outlets who were willing to go against the grain and make the obvious case that it wasn't working or going to work: All of them effectively espoused your strategy.
You (and they) wanted to the election to be something other than it was. And you were wrong, and if you were here, I and others probably told you that you were wrong. Some talking heads went onto mainstream media and told them they were wrong (Mehdi Hassan, Sam Seder, a few others). But you all didn't fucking listen and insisted you could just "beat" the electorate into doing what you wanted, like some kind of whipped dog, while the candidate drifted further and further right, towards a non-existent center.
How many votes did you gather to vote for Harris with this approach, that you and effectively all of non-rightwing, mainstream media argued for?
Well we have the receipts. You cost us 6 million votes, or roughly 8% of Biden's 2020 vote count. Pretty much the same number as the number of Democratic voters who voted "uncommitted" as part of the protest vote during the primary, because of Gaza.
You cost us core Democratic voters because you created the permission structure for the campaign to not feel the need to get support from their core Democratic base. You didn't come at this base with rhetoric, you came at them with abuse.
You should feel fucking horrible if this was the way you conducted yourself during the 2024 election cycle, and we'll be blaming BlueMAGA/ Blue-no-matter-who for Trumps victory until the end of time.
I mean obviously not because you still haven't caught on.
To what? The fact that most of my peers in the ultra left are posturing? That they are hypocrites? That they are okay with using thousands of lives as a bargaining chip? No, I'm pretty fucking aware of that at this point.
Your argument, your approach to electoralism: Its why the Democrats lost.
No, the people who were okay protesting the establishment by leaving their peers bleeding in the dirt to prove a point is why trump won. The protester holdouts who want to bitch about people like me holding them accountable and no longer being polite about it can't fucking hold a shred of moral high ground when they refused to use their voice to prevent enormous suffering. I'm convinced that you're a bot at this point.
You "won" the argument from the period of January 2024 until November 2024.
The only winners are the billionaires and ruling class who have successfully pushed rhetoric to polar extremes and have capitalized to install puppets and purchased politicians.
There are bans here, on lemmy, still in place from those who shared your view and used their power to silence challenging that strategy or narrative. Reddit too. It was ubiquitous across media.
Silencing dissenting view points isn't useful, don't lump me in with people who can and care to do that just because I'm pissed off. I'm not silencing anyone.
The wages we earned on your behalf because of your complete arrogance and stupidity was Trump.
Not on my behalf lol I actually voted why can't you remember that???
And you are being singled out because you are here, but to be sure, you weren't alone in this hubris.
Hubris. Wow
Imagine saying that the person in this argument who was capable of conceding to reality, dispite vehemently disagreeing with the options, and voting for Kamala....trying ensure the lesser of two evils gets into office to save other people's lives, is the one displaying hubris....rather than the person who is defending not voting to prevent the suffering....this is actual insanity, ill say it again, I actually voted. You're defending people who didn't.
What a place of privilege the protest non voters are in. They sleep at night with no risk of being bombed by Israel or Russia.
You're conflating me with some Washington DC pundit who talks down to silly little college kids who have hope. The problem is that guy happened to be right this time.
The stakes were insanely high. We had the data. We saw how bad trump was the first time with no preparation or support. and we knew that he had way more organization behind him this time.
“Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject.”
All of mainstream media, almost all but the truly "left of the left" media outlets who were willing to go against the grain and make the obvious case that it wasn't working or going to work: All of them effectively espoused your strategy.
Yeah because it's crazy that people think it's okay to gamble with someone as dangerous as Trump. Normal people with a soul understood this instinctually.
Of course the media tried to tell people that this is not the time to make a well intentioned, but morally incorrect decision to not vote.
What's your fucking point
You (and they) wanted to the election to be something other than it was.
Obviously. aoc, Bernie, Jon stewart....hell, a rock.
And you were wrong,
I know, I can't believe how many people actually were willing to condemn others because they were mad at the DNC.
and if you were here, I and others probably told you that you were wrong.
Oh yeah I argued till I was blue in the face with trolls and bots and hypocrites and everyone else.
Some talking heads went onto mainstream media and told them they were wrong (Mehdi Hassan, Sam Seder, a few others).
It makes sense that people more in touch with the far left like Sam would try and tell left leaning MSM that their is a grass roots coalition of protesters growing.
But you all didn't fucking listen and insisted you could just "beat" the electorate into doing what you wanted, like some kind of whipped dog, while the candidate drifted further and further right, towards a non-existent center.
Who is you all?? Lol
It's so clear that people on the left can't be held to a consistent moral code after watching this unfold. It's disheartening honestly. You're right, no amount of appealing to their humanity and doing quikmaffs mattered because "Democrats bad, I'll show them."
But I stand by everything. These people have blood on their hands over something that is petty and trivial in comparison. They wanted to make a stand against policies that were hurting immigrants and Palestinians so they helped elect trump by standing aside so he could turn Gaza into a resort and deport immigrants to Guantanamo. its hypocrisy, it's cruel, it's unforgivable.
How many votes did you gather to vote for Harris with this approach, that you and effectively all of non-rightwing, mainstream media argued for?
Hard to say, but don't forget that all the Islamic Arabic community leaders in places like Michigan published letters laying out how important it was to not let trump win. People were trying once it was apparent there was a rift dangerous enough to lose it all.
Well we have the receipts. You cost us 6 million votes, or roughly 8% of Biden's 2020 vote count. Pretty much the same number as the number of Democratic voters who voted "uncommitted" as part of the protest vote during the primary, because of Gaza.
By doing what exactly? Telling people to vote who already made their intentions known by not voting in primaries by using logical arguments to explain how those actions will hurt people worse that they claim to want to save? That's what made people not vote in the general election?? They already didn't once and Kamala was already picked.
You cost us core Democratic voters because you created the permission structure for the campaign to not feel the need to get support from their core Democratic base.
I didn't do that, they made the choice! youre victim blaming the non voters. That's abuser logic.
LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME NOT DO!! YOU MADE ME STAY HOME ON ELECTION DAY BY POINTING OUT THAT LESS PEOPLE WILL COME TO HARM IF I VOTE FOR THE PERSON ENDORSED BY THE ESTABLISHMENT CENTER DEMS.
What are you even talking about....
And it's a nonstarter anyway because the calculus is about trying to save people. This was a multiple choice test. There was only 1 right answer for that and people chose incorrectly for personal reasons.
And furthermore, your position depends on a static position across infinite time. AFTER Kamala would've been elected you can reapply pressure.
Protest in all the ways we can muster and guess what??? That hypothetical president is more receptive to protests and doesn't tweet shit about throwing them all in jail for wearing black masks on college campuses....
You didn't come at this base with rhetoric, you came at them with abuse.
COGENT LOGICAL ARGUMENTS ARE ABUSE NOW, WE ARE COOKED CHAT
You should feel fucking horrible if this was the way you conducted yourself during the 2024 election cycle, and we'll be blaming BlueMAGA/ Blue-no-matter-who for Trumps victory until the end of time.
You're fucking disgusting. It would be funny if people weren't dying because of this. Your telling people who fought to minimize harm during a watershed moment for our country that they are the ones who should feel bad? Your head is so beyond fucked.
Also I'm a Bernie voter, Democratic socialist/Marxist soooooo miss me with that blue maga shit.
Would you rather "be right", in the sense of your rhetorical and applied framing, or have Harris win the election?
You have to pick. Because you won the argument on how to approach the issue, at least for period of almost all of the period of 2024 that mattered. The world agreed with you. Your world view was precisely how almost all talking heads on addressed the issue. That voters needed to get over it. That voters needed to "vote strategically".
But it lost us the election. You won the round to lose the match. The hubris is you blaming anyone but yourself.
You have a choice. You can continue to "be right", in your mind, about how to approach rhetoric and electoralism, but you will not win elections.
Alternatively, you can change your mind, and reproach your strategy in terms of what it takes to win elections, both in rhetoric and approach to electoralism.
You can't have both. You have to decide.
Maybe democrats want to lose. Why else would they not invite 3rd parties to participate of equal footing. Why would they say no to multiple chances at beating the republicans? Why would they say no to increased voter participation and the free votes that come along side that.
Where is the urgency during the election? Where is the urgency now? Do they not believe what they've been saying about the republicans this whole time?
3rd parties cannibalize votes from which ever majority party it aligns closest with. That's the problem with our system. Your comment makes no sense I'm the context of current voting rules.
Ranked choice voting would help immensely and then your tongue in cheek rhetorical questions would make sense, but until then the answer is obvious. The Dems don't want that because it takes votes from them.
did you just blame the people who didn’t vote for Trump for being responsible for Trump being president
That's what this meme does.
Unfortunately it may have.
A lot of voters are stupid. They see Israel=Bad, Biden/Kamala = pro-Israel, they stay home.
Democrats are pragmatically there for the money. They aren't comically evil, but they are corrupt. They will throw an election before they ever give up AIPAC money and count on the next election swinging back to them. They get to sit back and watch the republicans be the bad guys and stir shit up for a few years. Then, when they get back in power, they fix the things that's don't make them money and look like he good guys but conveniently leave the unpopular policy the republicans enacted that makes them money and they don't have to look like the bad guys. They just look incompetent. But they aren't. This is all very purposeful. They love this dynamic. They benifit from it.
The democrats as they are for sure need to go. But we need to be more pragmatic ourselves about removing them instead of throwing elections to the republicans hoping it will teach the Democrats a lesson. Because it won't. We need to focus on getting a foothold and changing the party. And that means turning out to vote in every election no matter what. Vote third party. Vote write in. Vote whatever. But sitting out of elections to teach democrats a lesson just isn't going to do anything. It's just throwing away the small amount of political capital most people have. If we don't vote now its either corporate feudalism or civil war in the future.
Yeah I think they've realized over the decades that the needle swings like a metronome whether they try or not, especially thanks to obstructionists like Mitch McConnell ensuring trying won't go anywhere.
So they cash their paycheck, occasionally show up for votes, and play the stock market with knowledge they gain from privileged information.
I don't think so. Not that I have anything better to offer. My wife thinks Biden would've won because too many people stayed home, refusing to vote for a black woman. I, frankly, think the election was about the economy. If you look back over the elections, they are almost always about how people are doing financially. If they are scared or hurting, they will vote for change. If they are happy, they vote for the incumbent. My honest opinion is that there wasn't a scenario or candidate that would've changed Trump's victory.
What I am sure of is that in all of the states where Trump won (even Michigan), if every single person who withheld their vote due to Israel/Gaza had voted for Kamala, that wouldn't have been enough by itself to change the outcome. Certainly, that issue had an effect, but it didn't change the outcome by itself. We have to look beyond that.
But, still, if you did withhold your vote thinking you were fighting for Gaza, yeah I think you deserve to have your nose rubbed in that shit.
No, they were never going to do that. They've already said that they learned their lesson, and in 2026, they're gonna double down on the losing strategy that they've been running since Clinton was in office and run on building the wall on the Mexican border and deporting immigrants to court the moderate Republican vote that doesn't exist and never would vote for them even if it did.
By the Presidential election, it's already years too late to force them to actually do good things. Protest votes and withholding your vote have done nothing to stop the slide that led to Harris campaigning with Liz Cheney in tow in the 16 years that I've been voting. If you want change, it's only going to come by threatening the position of the people in charge of the party and replacing the old guard with people like AOC. Whoever gets elected President does neither of those things. Unless Krasnov declares the Democratic Party a terrorist organization and has them all arrested as political prisoners. But then we won't have to worry about voting ever again, just like he promised.
A few things.
Firstly, we can dismiss the notion that the candidate can't be moved. The citation for that is Biden in 2020, who effectively campaigned during the primary as a moderate Republican, and until the southern states which we're never going to go blue anyways weighed in, was getting his ass handed to him. The Sunday before Super Tuesday, the rat-fuckening, Oblivious Warren. All that old history.
And then something remarkable happened. Biden opened the doors to the tent and invited the progressive wing of the party in. He handed the Bernie-crats the platform and said "have at it hoss". And it worked. Instead of disenfranchising the activist base, he embraced them, or at least, extended an olive branch by giving them the platform, without which he assuredly would have lost.
So: Candidates can be moved.
Second:
By the Presidential election, it’s already years too late to force them to actually do good things. Protest votes and withholding your vote have done nothing to stop the slide that led to Harris campaigning with Liz Cheney in tow in the 16 years that I’ve been voting.
Again. And I'm singling you out because you responded and well, here we are. This is an obtuse, bordering on bad faith interpretation of the argument being made. You aren't arguing with me. You are arguing with the millions of voters who stayed home for Kamala but showed up for Biden. And you moralizing about an objectively misguided application of strategic voting didn't/ doesn't/ won't/ change their votes. When your "strategic voting" strategy results in losing you the election, explain to me how and why its strategic?
You don't/ can't move millions of voters to a new position. Or at least it hasn't been shown to be possible (2016, 2024). Asking voters to "vote against" instead of "voting for" doesn't work and we now have so many receipts, that they will write text books on the matter. What can be done, is that the candidate can be moved. Its also been shown through an evidentiary process to work.
To summarize, candidates can be moved. Biden moved and won an election because of it. When you moralize about your own, demonstrated-to-be-wrong conception of strategic voting, you aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with the literally millions of people left on the table by the Democrats. A strategy that when examined before hand will clearly lose, the insistence of then implementing it becomes a "burn the world down" moralization to wash your own hands: Democratic voters who reliably show up, but did not, because the DNC got a hall pass from those making the exact arguments you are making here. They did not need to respond to criticism because this argument you are making shielded them. And it cost us all, practically everything.
Further evidence that the democrats can be moved if we don't let them maintain the delusion they can win while trying to be republicans: The entire party told Biden to drop out when it was clear he had no path to victory.
Sadly Kamala was allowed to believe she could win while embracing the same policies and messaging that killed the Biden campaign. Instead of screaming at the party to campaign on overwhelmingly popular left policy necessary to win the election and use every power at the democrat's disposal to accomplish it, blue MAGA told anyone pointing out that we're headed back towards the waterfall to shut up and paddle harder.
Yep, I voted D like I always did...
But I spent a lot of time ringing any alarm bell I could find that all of Joe and Kamal's moves to the right was gonna cost us the election, and that the victory fund would lose the House and Senate.
I was right on all counts, but the people I was trying to explain it won't admit that reality proved them wrong.
There's no criticism for what the party did wrong, only anger at anyone with higher standards than the letter by the name.
Neoliberals want nothing as much as they want blindly loyal Dem voters, it's the only way most people ever hold their noses and vote for one. But rather than have a candidate dem voters want, they'd rather risk trump.
When they shut on voters like in that meme, they're telling us they have zero problem watching the country burn. They'd rather have trump than a Dem who agrees with Dem voters.
handwaving away valid criticisms
If you look carefully, you'll find statements about how "neither option affects [this particular thing] but we have the best chance of fixing it after the election if we still have a country".
It was never handwaved. It was the least-worse option with some kind of hope given that issue and a thousand others. How many times this has fucking been fucking explained and not fucking understood.
Uh yes it was definitely hand-waved away by some "if you look carefully". It was only the "least-worse option" because so many were successfully manipulated by the system into being placated with crumbs so they wouldn't revolt at the thousands of other reasons we've had for years to fight back against this shit, pushing the Overton window to the right in increments and leading folks to not use or even possess or be taught in the first place the critical thinking skills required to inform oneself and take steps to make positive change, in this system designed to intentionally misinform and mislead us and pit us against each other so we vote for the same rich white men responsible for perpetuating this system and the harm it brings to all of us, especially marginalized communities.
I would recommend to you (and anyone who is interested in informing themselves on what is being done to us) to read "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein. It details this process of incremental change, and some of the strategies and parties previously and currently involved in taking control of our government (or at this point more like what's left of it).
(For clarity: I'm not saying both parties are the same, although their goals, tactics, and policies seem less different to me as time passes; I'm not making any general statement passing blame to any group of voters or non-voters in this comment, because I believe the bulk of the responsibility lies on the system and those who hold sway over large parts of it in the form of currency or legislation, for example; I'm not denying or invalidating that you may feel this way and/or believe it is true, I'm taking issue with your statement that "it was never handwaved", because I most certainly saw that happen and know people who to this day are clinging to that sentiment; I'm not saying harm reduction isn't the move or good policy, it is but there has to simultaneously be work being done on reducing or removing the source of that harm)
Edit: sorry for run-on sentences. working on it gradually and open to feedback
Pressure needs to be put on the democrats to be better, too.
They're already 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000x better than Republicans. So someone would have to be pretty goddamn stupid not to vote for them when the options are them or Republicans.
The majority of the fault isn't on Democrats. It's on goddamn stupid braindead asshole American voters for being goddamn stupid braindead assholes.
They're already 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000x better than Republicans. So
how can this be quantified?
I'd like to believe you're right, but given who won the election I'm forced to disagree - hand-waiving away valid criticisms, along with all responsibilities of all kinds, while making the most wildly invalid criticisms of others seems to be a great way to win elections.
This isn't just being pedantic. If you just say democrats have to address all valid concerns, it's putting them at a political disadvantage because some valid concerns can't be addressed without losing. Democrats are in a tough spot anytime there's a crisis in Israel because Muslims and Jews both vote democrat when they're not pissed off. Both groups heavily shifted towards Trump this election. Because both groups contain large numbers of people who, like other people, tend to be shockingly bad at doing what's rational when they're having emotions.
Point is, as much as Kamala failed to stop Trump and that falls on her, cut her some slack on the Israel-Palestine thing because it's hard being attacked from all sides by emotional zombies who won't listen to reason. There's no right decisions to be made.
Nobody pushing genocide is worthy of votes or support.
It was incumbent on Dems to EARN votes, and they failed spectacularly. You’re wrong to try blaming voters for failings of our corrupt politicians.
Will you still be saying that when Trump puts a resort in Gaza?
Trump has made it crystal clear: He plans for the complete and total ethnuc cleansing of Gaza. All Palestinians will be killed or removed
That's what Arab and Palestinian Americans chose when they voted for Trump
Will you still be saying that when Trump puts a resort in Gaza?
Yes. Will you refuse to demand electoral reform in your state so the people of this nation can vote outside the two party system without a spoiler effect? Will you refuse to do anything about those who are without representation? Will you refuse democracy?
So according to you, the palestinians voted for trump and therefore deserve to be genocided???
Tell me, how exactly would arab and palestinian people have been able to vote for trump? And why would they do that?
Of course you dont have proof either because votes are secret, so, because you suspect some palestinians of voting for trump you want them all genocided???
I'm not American so nobody got my vote, but seems to me like the issue is with the swathes of people choosing facism rather than progressives who chose not to vote.
Choosing how to act in a world like ours is tricky, anyone following a sense of right and wrong (even if I disagree with their judgement) instead of fear, hate, greed or whatever gets a gold star in my book.
Inaction is still a choice, though. I totally understand the sentiment behind that choice and even agree that we shouldn't be forced to choose genocide, but the alternative that we got is a man who not only wants the same genocide, but wants to accelerate it, put American boots on the ground to assist in it, and then turn the bloodied ground into resorts while also wanting to worsen life across the globe. So, by refusing to act, they didn't oppose that man getting into power. They cared so much about genocide that, ironically, they enabled making that genocide worse by not acting against that possibility.
The biggest issue, though, is with the people who couldn't be bothered enough to vote. Some, what, 40% of Americans never vote? Of course, there's plenty there who can't due to things like gerrymandering, but there's a huge swathe of white suburbanites who simply prefer the status quo to actually improving things.
by refusing to act, they didn't oppose that man getting into power.
you can refuse to vote for a Democrat and still oppose the man getting into power.
But thanks to the two party system, what effect does it have? And I'm specifically talking about the voting day of the presidential election here, not primaries or other elections. Because that's where those efforts will have the most impact. Not that the Dems deigned to give us even the illusion of a primary this election (or in 2016, truthfully), but so many of these people seem to shake their fist once every 4 years and then go to sleep like cicadas awaiting the next presidential election.
I don't blame people for hating the weak candidates that the Dems consistently push forward to maintain the old guards' leadership positions, but I do blame them for looking at the alternative and saying "I'm okay with the possibility of that man winning if I don't vote or vote third party." The chance of a Trump victory and all that it entailed was a line in the sand that they were willing to cross.
As a trans woman, I blame them for saying, "Your life is not worth biting the bullet for."
looking at the alternative and saying “I’m okay with the possibility of that man winning if I don’t vote or vote third party.”
whether I vote for Dems or no, I'm not ok with republican candidates.
The chance of a Trump victory and all that it entailed was a line in the sand that they were willing to cross.
that chance was thrust upon all of us. accepting reality doesn't make him acceptable.
refusing to accept the reality of mathematics
support your claim
Suppose there are 10 people eligible to vote.
3 of them are known to support a fascist and will vote, no matter what. They have religious figures reminding them and pressuring them to vote for the fascist and watch propaganda daily that maintains their outrage and support.
1 of them is a big supporter of the neolibs and will vote for them no matter what.
1 of them is a pragmatic leftist who grudgingly will vote for the neolibs because there is no other viable choice.
1 of them is undecided either because they don't think fascism is that bad, or think it won't impact them, or don't consider how it could impact people who are not as privileged as them, etc.
The other 4 are:
That's 6/10 eligible voting (in line with the proportion of eligible voters that voted in 2024).
Further, historical data shows that when fewer people vote, the fascists win because of their dedication to their cause and authority figures coaxing them to do so. This data is readily available in terms that are easy to comprehend, even for those without technical or scientific education.
So, the breakdown is:
Fascism: 3
Neolibs: 2 or 3
Coin toss on whether the fascists win, because, of those deigning to engage in the electoral system, one of them is not convinced that opposing fascism is really that big of a deal.
What about third parties? They don't matter in this but because it is first-past-the-post and only a majority of participating voters is required.
But, the majority of polled people support left-of-center policies! Why are we forced to vote for neolibs?! Doesn't matter. 4 out of 10 eligible voters are going to vote in support of right-of-center ideologies. If more eligible voters voted, that wouldn't be an issue and the voice of the majority would be heard. But, between apathy, voter suppression, and the anti-electoralist/accelerationist cult, 40% are not voting. And that's still "good" compared to the last half-century.
So, there you go. Barely even scratching statistics and simple to digest as to why voters who refused to do their duty to oppose fascism share the responsibility with the neolibs.
Simplified: 3 > (1+1) but 3 < (1+1+1+1)
Questions?
It is vitally important, not just in elections but also in life overall, to recognize that not all possibilities are equally likely and to use available data to evaluate them.
For example, it is possible that a white rhinoceros might come down the hall and join me for a spot of tea and biscuits. I can, however, safely say that that is almost definitely not going to happen, based upon these data points:
Yes, this is a exaggerated caricature. However, data with even more clarity is available surrounding election outcomes. Betting on a possible outcome without any evidence to suggest that it is likely is foolish and betting on an outcome that one knows is unlikely, while increasing the likelihood of an outcome known to be harmful to vulnerable people is detestable.
Non-voters/protest voters don’t give a fuck about trans people
prove it
Have you done anything to fix it?
Yes. I've supported efforts for electrical reform both locally and nationality.Are the democrats doing anything to fix it?
The leadership of a primarily neo-liberal party that likes the status quo and sees little opposition from the left in primaries? No, I don't think they currently are.Nows the time. Not during the election.
Here, we have some agreement and common ground. Now is indeed a much better time to try for change than a general election. However, with fascists in power, free elections are likely to no longer occur for the foreseeable future. So, demanding resistance from elected officials and building community is vital to weathering this storm that was avoidable.
Now. I see that you have not responded to my request for what you have done, after my response to your accusatory question. Care to do so? Or are you just JAQing it?
As a trans woman, I blame them for saying, “Your life is not worth biting the bullet for.”
I don't believe voting for Democrats is an effective way to save anyone's life.
The biggest issue, though, is with the people who couldn’t be bothered enough to vote. Some, what, 40% of Americans never vote?
Sounds like First-past-the-post voting doesn't properly represent the population. Let's try a new electoral system to fix this. The people of Alaska switched to Ranked Choice and they had a referendum last election to go back to FPTP voting, and they didn't want to.
::: spoiler Videos on alternative voting systems
youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiy… (What most states use now)
Videos on alternative electoral systems we can try out.
youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8Hs…
I feel a lot of people do a lot to justify stupid behaviour. "Saving is too hard" or "exercise is too hard". There's legit reasons to not be able to save, or exercise or being able to vote 🤨.
However there's a lot of bullshit that people were spouting. It's either a coordinated campaign or just dumb shit. What annoys me is everyone piling on Joe and then they did what people wanted and swapped to Kamala and they're still upset that the Dems "don't listen". Whatever, they're all full of it.
I fucking hate the Democrats but you have to be completely psycho to justify not-voting for them.
To be clear, I'm Canadian and I'm directly impacted by this now. So fuck all of those people.
While I did vote blue conservative (for the last time), they were not worthy of that vote because they did not represent me. That's how representative democracy works. What you advocate for is not representative democracy, it is a hostage situation and should be treated like the crisis that that entails.
Why are you okay with people being underrepresented at the voting booth? Are you actively working to replace First Past the Post voting in your state? People should have the freedom to vote for the candidates they believe are best, while still ensuring their votes count against those they don’t want in office.
It's not as though democrats are just now learning of the mathematical flaws of FPTP. Every election I've seen the same bullshit excuses to take people's inalienable right to vote how they want. Democrats in blue states made a choice to leave a huge portion of the population unrepresented, all for safe states and easy elections.
We don’t need to wait for a miracle from Congress, we can pass election reform one state at a time. Should we have more elections, we must remove the democratic monopoly on this fight against the republicans. Don't worry, blue conservative, you will be free to vote for your preference under a more representative electoral system. Because who would want to deny someone the right to vote for the person they feel is best? You apparently.
Alaska has already abolished FPTP voting. After Ranked Choice Voting kept Sarah Palin out of office, Alaskan Republicans tried to pass a referendum to revert to FPTP, but the people voted to keep Ranked Choice. Why would you want to use the same voting system that Republicans favor? Do you support democracy, or do you get off on forcing people unrepresented in government to vote for your preference?
::: spoiler Videos on alternative voting systems
youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiy… (What most states use now)
Videos on alternative electoral systems we can try out.
youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8Hs…
This is something that only the Judiciary can declare (by failing to do anything), so I think it takes more than a few weeks.
But the Executive sure is working towards it.
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I mean, fuck antisemitism in any form, obviously...
...but I'm going to say "allow fascists to eliminate freedom of protest" has a spotty track record improving that particular issue.
This guy is in power in no small part due to whatever definition for not-fascist Americans you want to use not showing up because they feel compromise is beneath them. Maybe it's time to learn that lesson.
Well, no, the time to learn that lesson was November. I guess it's finding out time. For people too rightfully indignant about the genocide in Gaza to look past their own noses and to people in your situation alike, I'm afraid.
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"We should repeal the First Amendment because I don't like it when protestors support Palestine."
It's hard to take your claims seriously when you have a history of twisting and misinterpreting any pro-Palestine anything as if it was a personal attack directly at you.
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Mod reminder to keep it civil and no personal attacks when you reply to this. This person has had bad experiences, remember the human. Please report any personal attacks.
PS: Remember, if you want to convince people you need to meet them where they are. This person is your neighbor, not your enemy.
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This position is interesting. It's echoed in articles like:
jewishjournal.com/culture/firs…
Sometimes couched as anti-Israel, we find supporters of discrimination in their spheres of influence, including Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.) and Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.), spouting prejudices with hubris while their party’s leadership, Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, remain mostly silent.German Jews recognize they safely exist only through police protection, who park outside German synagogues to prevent anti-Semitic violence. In Poland, the home of Auschwitz, anti-Semitism has become so accepted it blatantly is part of the platform of the National Democratic Party, known as “Endeks.”
And they assert this bit of history as evidence:
From 1921 to 1935, there was a group named the Association of German National Jews (Verband national Deutsche Juden), whose goal was the total assimilation of Jews into German culture; the self-eradication of Jewish identity; the expulsion of all Eastern European Jews from Germany; and a radical hatred of Zionism. Sadly, these seem like the same goals of many Jews in America choosing to deny the faith and practices of their ancestors in favor of secularizing themselves. On some level — often unconscious — they believe if they deny their Judaism and go along with the anti-Semitic rhetoric, non-Jewish Americans will better accept them. Unfortunately, they are avoiding looking at history.
To me, it sounds like the argument is being framed as "us" Jews and "them" Jews making the mistake of trying to homogenize. That's tremendously ironic, as this type of thinking is exactly what led them to support Nazi Germany. The exact kind of language Trump use, aggressive, bombastic pursuit of "agitators" as undesirables, of ignoring antisemites and bigots Trump associates himself with, of dismissing his speech as a "rhetorical tool," is what German Jewish groups believed would protect them... Until Nazis came for them, too.
Maybe antisemetic violence should be curbed, but you should consider what's actually causing it, and how that "curbing" will be done.
There is no question anti-Semitism is on the rise internationally at a level not seen in decades. Sometimes couched as anti-Israel, we find supporters ofRabbi Michael Barclay (Jewish Journal)
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I'm sure it must be a stressful time for Jewish people. All hate crime is horrible. Many people, Jewish and non-Jewish, oppose the actions of Israel.
I do hope the protests, to stop US arms being sent to Israel, grow in strength. And I do what I can personally to help.
When looking at the numbers its no exaggeration to say that the Palestinian people are being slaughtered by the Israel military.
- On October 7, 2023 Israel was attacked killing 1200 Israelis. Israel's response to the attack has been completely disproportionate and has now (as of June 2024) killed over 7,797 children. In the same time the conflict killed 53 children in Israel.
- The most conservative estimate is that 7,797 Palestinian children have been killed, in the same time it is estimated that the total Israeli casualties; including military and civilian, including men, women, and children is 1200.
- on April 24, 2024 with many thousands of Palestinian children already dead, the US gave 14 billion in aid to Israel
- Neither US political party is stopping this.
Here are my sources, I am always interested to have other sources.
From the earliest days of the Israel-Hamas war, global leaders have questioned the reliability of fatality data coming o@politifact
Friendly reminder that Trump refused to condemn a group of white supremacists chanting "Jews will not replace us".
He is not on your side. And, if history is any indication, allowing government to control speech and expression by fascist means is much more dangerous to Jews than any group of student protesters could ever be.
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It’ll be gutted so that private schools can take over
Maybe. If it resists. If it fails to resist it will be turned into an institution responsible for communicating a fascist ideology.
We need something like this for daytime.
Also, read up on what they are ultimately going for: Eliminating the First Amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
A DIY wearable for avoiding recognition on IR security cameras.Mac Pierce
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Trump supporters: "that's fine, the president isn't congress"
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This happened before: en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sophie…
a German student and anti-Nazi political activist, active within the White Rose non-violent resistance group in Nazi Germany. She was convicted of high treason after having been found distributing anti-war leaflets at the University of Munich(LMU) with her brother, Hans.
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"Such a splendid sunny day, and I have to go. But how many have to die on the battlefield in these days, how many young, promising lives... What does my death matter if by our acts thousands are warned and alerted. Among the student body there will certainly be a revolt."
She's bae.
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RIP hero
Somebody, after all, had to make a start. What we wrote and said is also believed by many others. They just don't dare express themselves as we did.
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances
1st ammendment to the constitution since conservatives love to claim they support it
The constitution also didn't say "the president shall give a shit about the law"
Rookie mistake, IMO
It literally did, minus your contemporary idiom:
he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed,
(It's called the "take care clause" and is part of Article II, Section 3, in case anybody wants to look it up.)
Not that it matters anymore, after Trump v. United States.
Laws only matter if they are enforced.
The right wing doesn't care about law or consistency. They care about in-groups to protect and out groups to bind.
If "how do treat strangers" is a viable metric for assessing if someone is a good person or not, the the right wing are not good people.
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Look at what happens when you don’t burn the fascist the moment it pops up. It will get worse and then even more worse.
I wish the non-mouth breathing half of the US the best of luck.
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Californian here.
We should stop paying federal taxes.
We have a ton of money, a ton of military installations, and 1 in 8 Americans IS a Californian. Washington and Oregon join us, and we'd be in even better shape. Canada can get in on the action too.
A felon rapist traitor and his traitor party is making our Constitution irrelevant. Time to start looking out for ourselves.
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WA state here - it's ridiculous that I have to subsidize chuds in Mississippi and Louisiana when they won't even give their citizens human rights. they're all about fiscal responsibility until it comes to paying their own fucking bills.
edit: love the chudvotes, do we have some cranky MS and LA types? pay your fucking bills jerkfaces. fuck, half your budgets come from federal funds we pour more into.
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In one specific economic theory.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm pointing out that it's a whole debate.
"But I em le' tiiiired..."
"Zen take a nap...ZEN FIRE ZE MISSLEZ!!"
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He didn't win by being consistent. Hypocrisy is WHY people voted for him. They thought he was the only one who would "do the hard things" by being cruel to the people who are hurting everyone. That's the narrative at least, and while you can literally write libraries on the flaws, inconsistencies and logical discrepancies in Trump and the Republican narratives, the fact remains that most people are vulnerable to storylines.
Not moral flaws. Not character. Not record or experience. The only thing people largely, as a group, care about is JUST how someone makes them feel in that moment. And a lot of poorly educated, mentally unwell people saw and heard Trump lying to the people they believe were the cause of all our woes, and that's why they voted for him.
If we ever want another democracy that works, we have to understand that our population is genetically and physically identical to the beings who were clubbing each other's heads in during ten thousand years of ice age glaciers and primitive hardship. We survived those times by forming tight-knight groups and telling ourselves stories for how to survive. We're doing the same things right now, but someone else is guiding those stories. Either we stop the storytellers or we make better stories that people will want to repeat. Those are our only options.
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Either we stop the storytellers or we make better stories that people will want to repeat.
We do have better stories: the stories or class conflict and workers solidarity. It's just that the people in power would rather fascists win than let those stories reach the people that need to hear them.
If the stories aren't working, they're not better.
"Better" here is going to be a highly loaded word, and revolves a lot around what results you're seeking. Humans connect with stories that connect with their feelings, it's how they got exploited to get us here. Decades of people signing away their own rights in service of stories that momentarily scared them, and here we are in the culmination of all these tiny stories and resulting policies that have been made to steer people to this place and time.
You can't just tell people now "Trump is the bad guy, trans people aren't threatening us, we have to help Ukraine, the wealthy elite are our real enemies."
It doesn't matter if the story is true, that story doesn't move people. It's just lecturing to the toddler-mind that makes up the bulk of our population. You can't make the people better. We HAVE to abandon this idea that everyone wants to "do the right thing" on some level. No we fucking don't. People want to feel validated. Not even feel good, that's less important to people than feeling heard and validated. Our stories need to make individuals feel something, individuals who view everything outside of their immediate sphere of awareness as abstractions and theory, not reality. You can't make these people feel sympathy or care for others, so we have to make them feel something else.
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the idea that the best narrative is the one that thrives
I was pretty clear that the effectiveness of a narrative is dependant on the results you're seeking. I think you can turn a narrative loose into the world and it will run autonomously to a degree, and you could use a story's ability to thrive and survive as a measure of at least how attractive and engaging it is, but no, I don't think that is what makes a story effective for the purposes of influencing a large amount of people to make better choices, to have more curiosity, to think more about things they don't normally think about.
Social engineering like this does take deliberate work. It takes effort and work to keep a story alive and growing. The problem is we already have tons of people doing this work for their own agendas. Sometimes they're good stories, sometimes they're terrible stories, but it almost doesn't matter the "quality" of the narrative, since our brains are designed to hook into narratives to explain the world even if the explanation doesn't even make a lick of sense. See: anti-vax doctors and flat earthers.
I cannot upvote this comment as much as I would want to upvote it.
Can you give examples of what you think might be working stories?
Can you give examples of what you think might be working stories?
It's really hard to create a narrative with the sheer power and influence of stories using fear and hate, because we all respond much stronger to fear and anger than we do more abstract ideas like charity and empathy as a matter of survival. I genuinely have no idea how you fight this. It's literally an exploitation of all of our survival responses and it will always work on some segment of any given population, and once it starts to work on a few people, the effect will snowball. My prescription here is that we can't let hate speech start in the first place. We have held the sanctity of bad ideas in too much regard for too long, other nations don't fuck around with this shit because they know how contagious hate and fear is.
There is however one great example of successful, working populism I can think of though, and that's Bernie Sanders. He's been effective in messaging to both right and left for decades because he's consistent, he validates our problems and keeps his focus laser-tight and narrow on one talking point: which is how the wealthy oligarchs are hoarding our wealth. That's all, and he's held the same talking point for decades and it works on both sides of the political spectrum. It's just a shame that we're in a place where power has already been ceded to the corporate interests and people like Bernie are muzzled long before they get real power.
I am not American, I was in the border of anarchism before all this but now I am full anarchist.
Thanks Orange man.
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Hey Muricans, this is what you wanted and voted for (or could't be bother voting to prevent)... enjoy
or, hit the streets and remove the fascist gov you elected
Previously I thought almost all of them were, but then I found out that someone I've known for years hold that view. Any mention that maybe voting for the democrats would be a good idea results in an angry speech about genocide; which somehow (I'm not sure how) even has them lean towards Trump.
I appreciate the staunch opposition to genocide. But its kind of weird to see someone take a single issue so strongly to heart that their reasoning ends up inverted such that the candidate they favour is worse even on their one issue.
That's very true. Bots once/twice removed? Like bots influencing the people posting here?
I can't imagine you get to that conclusion alone
That reminds me, I wonder what @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world is up to these days.
Paging @linkerbaan@lemmy.ml.
8000 comments in 9 months, dead silent shortly after the election. (World, .ml is more active now)
Jesus.
@irreticent@lemmy.zip
The Lemmy.World mods permabanned and removed my account after I made a detailled posed exposing them for being massive Zionists in one of my posts on yepowetrippingbastards which got removed by db0. (A powetripping bastard. Ironic).
I am a lot less active since the trifecta of libs (db0, .world and blahaj) instantly ban my accounts. As soon as this was created I made a post about the Lemmy.world mods going on a Zionist power trip and removing my account and db0's response was to ban this account as well and censor the whole ordeal.
I love the quote by Victor Saltzpyre in Vermintide 2:
"Do not be tempted to compare evils, lest you be tempted to cleave with the least of them!"
Barack “I’ve got a pen, and I’ve got a phone.” Obama shows the same attitude from the other side.
It’s more palatable, but it’s still the same oppressive bullshit
Gaza is not a problem to me. I honestly don’t give a shit.
I don’t want anything except to be left alone, and neither party seems to be capable of doing that
I agree.
Labor party, Democrat, republican/ conservative, maga, etc. . And cut it out with this D/R bullshit. It's maddening. There are people that have a serious moral issue casting a vote for some of the choices given.
I'm sure a lot of the people who sat it out are more informed and upset with what is going on than some of those that "chose the lesser evil". They have every right to be furious.
“…illegal protest…”?
Oh right, the US Constitution doesn’t exist any more.
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The problem is it cuts both ways. The Democrats saying they want hate speech to not be protected and Nazi propaganda to be censored is just the flipside of the same coin.
Either you have free speech or you don’t
Either you have free speech or you don’t
Lots of countries have free speech with limits on it. It's not uncommon and doesn't mean Citizens don't have freedom of speech.
For example:
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If it has a limit, it’s not free
If I can’t do a Nazi salute, then I can’t say “I want to shoot Donald Trump in the face”
If it has a limit, it’s not free
"Free bread sticks"
"I'll take 100"
"Um... No. You can't have that many."
"iF tHeRe'S a LiMiT iT's NoT fReE!"
Don’t be pedantic. A limit would be “free breadsticks only if you decide to pray to our god in front of us.”
If you say unlimited and then put a limit on it, that is illegal, as Verizon and AT&T found out in court
If you say unlimited and then put a limit on it
When did the American Constitution promise "Unlimited Speech"?
The breadstick analogy was for unlimited not free
It was both. They were advertised as free, they are free, but there are limits despite them being free
Nothing free is unlimited.
Alternatively Americans have no freedoms at all because they all have limits.
Freedom of Travel? You can't walk through a military base.
Freedom of Religion? No one is going to recognize your Jedi holy day. (Not to mention the government not recognizing the religious right to an abortion from Jews or TST.)
Freedom of commerce? You're not allowed to purchase heroin or import things from Cuba.
If it has a limit, it’s not freeDon’t be pedantic
Bruh... your pedantry started this
No, because it is unconstitutional to put someone under oath
By definition, it means a solemn promise that is beholden to a deity therefore it is illegitimate in court and law by the First Amendment.
You probably also think it should not be legal to kill people that break into your house to steal your TV.
Society and laws are at the mercy of those who are in control. Right now in the US it is the Trump administration, but I remember Barack Obama saying, “I’ve got a pen, and I’ve got a phone,” emphasizing his ability to take executive action without waiting for Congress to push his agenda forward.
That’s not freedom.
If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal. (Karl Popper)
Advocating for hurting people is not a crime. Even an inactionable threat is not a crime. Look up precedent for arrests of inciting a riot and see how many of those charges actually stuck or help up on appeal.
The fact that people are saying yore okay to punch Nazis in the face would be a violation of what you are advocating for but you have no problem with that because you don’t like Nazis.
I personally don't support people saying that either. Punching people in the face is not a great way to change their minds that they are being "the bad guy". And I think seeing alot of people post that, is counter productive to the goal of getting along and solving problems together reasonably.
But I don't, and shouldn't, control what everyone else thinks is a good idea.
Advocating for hurting people is a crime.
It's really not, though. Making a specific, credible threat against someone can be, but speaking in general terms that someone ought to be hurt without specifying how, when, or by who is not.
I'm sure you'll become correct momentarily, though, once Trump declares that calling for his removal (or hell, any criticism of the regime because why not?) would "hurt" him politically and is therefore a felony. That is what you had in mind, right?
There is no difference between those two phrases if you actually have free speech
And in fact, saying “I voted for Donald Trump”, is way more offensive to me than saying “kill everyone in Gaza”
God you are a fucking cunt.
Just exercising my free speech. Don't mind me.
Every freedom ends where freedoms of others are infringed. That includes every freedom, let it be freedom of movement (you can go wherever, but not someone else's house), freedom of expression (you can express yourself however, unless that expression instills hatred towards others, inflicts trauma on kids etc. etc.) and yes, also freedom of speech (You can say anything, unless what you do is calling for violence, attacks someone etc.).
Some of you US guys really don't understand how freedom in a society works.
oh look, a literal “free speech absolutist.”
Wrong platform
Is it so hard to believe you think Free speech should be absolute weapon should be unrestricted, abortion should be unrestricted, people should be able to harness electricity from solar and harness rainwater from the sky?
Because these are all things that are restricted here except for speech, so I am sure as fuck not going to budge on it
Yes, it is.
That’s why all the Westborough Baptist people can stand around with God hates fags signs and nothing happens to them
I thought you were replying to me at first, but it just reaffirm what I said so now it looks like you were replying to someone else maybe
The ruling reaffirmed that the government cannot punish speech just because it is offensive or upsetting, reinforcing strong protections for free speech under the First Amendment.
Nope, I was definitely replying to you. The court decided there's a subtle difference and that their "God hates fags" signs skirt hate speech laws quite well within the US legal framework. And I unfortunately agree as a gay atheist.
it just reaffirm what I said
Hold on. The fact that they went to trial over it and that there was litigation of the particular use of language is indication that not all speech is free speech and that careful consideration of where that line is was required. If their signs had been different this ruling would've also been quite different based on the same premise.
I mean just to be fair isn't it illegal to have a huge protest without informing the authorities first? Also violent protests would be illegal too, right?
These assumptions are based on similar laws from other countries. But I don't really believe Trump is talking about those protests or just planning to forbid them from getting permission to happen.
LOL
...i mean you gotta give the orange one credit for making a show every day.
How many universities will abandon free speech rights for 10% of their budget?
All of them. Of course they'll frame it like "to enable our storied institution to continue performing our vital work, we are temporarily putting a moratorium on non-pre-approved meetings. Thank you for your understanding."
Well that's easy. The protests aren't illegal. Therefore this amounts to nothing.
Fuck this dude.
Wait, this seems silly. You are in effect saying that it's wrong to blame those who stayed home because some of them would have voted for trump? Like, we'd still blame those people too had they actually voted trumo.
The blame isn't just because you voted for trump it is because you didn't try to stop him, which applies both to those who voted for him and those who didn't vote.
it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes, it goes...
GUILLOTINE
"Guess I will just get sick and fucking die."
-Everyone with an autoimmune disease
Got a good person out there mirroring those “Truths” too
This one’s at:
trumpstruth.org/statuses/29946
All Federal Funding will STOP for any College, School, or University that allows illegal protests. Agitators will be imprisoned/or permanently sent back to the country from which they came.Trump's Truth
Jesus wept.
If only y'all had some sort of constitution with some sort of amendment that ment you had free speech and another that said you had weapons with which to defend said constitution.
Then they're also the enemy.
They're deliberately corrupting the meaning of your constitution to weaken the people.
That word doesn't mean anything to him, except as a tool to prosecute people he doesn't like. Obviously laws and illegality don't mean shit when it's him breaking the law.
Pretty sure there is enough evidence for treason at this point, but Congress won't act on it.
That word doesn’t mean anything to him
"Illegal" as in "illegal immigrants". It's a connotation word, it doesn't mean anything on its own obviously.
Is the President trying to tell private institutions who they can do business with?
Why I never!
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They won't. They couldn't even get upset over kids being massacred every week in their schools. They are a broken people. Have been for decades. Their military.and economy didn't fail. Their moral fiber did. They substituted thoughts and prayers and other virtue signalling for community organisation and direct action.
If you think I am wrong then don't reply. Go outside and prove it. Nobody gives a shit what people write in social media. It means nothing.
Lots of us are mad and just don't know what to do. One at a time we get arrested or shot. It takes a group effort but nothing has crystallized yet.
I got two kids under 4, I'm not lining up to get my ticket punched just to get the ball rolling.
Exactly. In Ukraine parents fight and die so their 4 year old will have a country to return to. In the US they let their souls die instead and leave their kids to fight their own battles.
You are a nation of Uvalde cops.
Downvote me. Argue. In your hearts you all know it is true. You are broken. You were clearly broken since at least the 90s when you met Columbine with platitudes instead of tens of millions of mothers on the streets screaming in pain.
I'm not going to downvote you. Suggest an action.
Edit: And inspire us by what you are doing besides flaming on the Internet. I'm sure you must be doing something, rather than standing by passing the buck? Right?
Thankfully I live in a rich liberal democracy where over 90% vote and we still have a fairly decent though far from perfect society.
I can be outraged by what Americans let happen to their country because I'm human and a parent but I can't help and shouldn't help. American society needs to find its own solutions, in its own time and on terms it can live with.
You can't pass this off onto me.
Sorry, but I think you and those like you are deflecting. I still see posts from Americans saying this wasn't us. We are nice people. We have no power. It is crazy. Why are you even online telling us this? You think we blame you personally?
I live in the other side of the planet. If I am going to help anyone its going to be some poor unfortunate struggling with poverty, war and genocide imposed on them.
Not delusional people from the richest country on earth who had everything and lack the will to influence their own fate.
You don't have to apologize it sucks for us as much or more than it sucks for you.
It's easy to gripe on the Internet for anybody and it's much harder to act. In a country like the US, where do you even start? It is huge, the military has more money than god, and the police force is by and large the little brother of the military but with way less oversight and more dysfunction. You want to stop a city once? Sure, np big deal. You want to bring this country to heel? That takes coordination.
It's really easy to talk if you are in western Europe where your country is the size of one middle of the road US state and you've got 8 months of vacation a year. Same if your country has like 8 cities total because basically 3/4 of your nation/continent is uninhabitable. You do not share the same problems of scale. Period. At all. I could go out tomorrow and get killed for no reason, but what purpose does that serve?
I'm glad you have a good view from your high horse. Consider doing something more than watch, because you know what? You could be next. I'm here asking for tips and tricks and you're in AUS looking down your nose while you suck your own dick. Real cool man.
Hey let's go broski. Are you right or aren't you? Are you giving up because all of AUS is like #3 to all US states by population? It's so easy: whatever works for AUS you only have to work for 13 TIMES the population in the US and then you win. Look how fuckin easy it is! Where are you? Your parents house? Surely they have Internet too.
Edit: or MAYBE you can be humble, STFU and try to help? Otherwise you can keep being a pretentious knob, and nobody will know it but us. By balance of probability your only like 13 anyway. Today I'm not feeling so charitable to dickbags.
Gimme a break, I don't expect you to know everything that goes on here, just as all I "know" about Australia is "you" made Murdoch, continue to abuse native people just like us, and dingos regularly eat babies. Like asserting that no Australian people care about those issues is wrong and obviously my fundamental understanding of the country is flawed, it's also wrongheaded to assert the American people are all broken and spineless for years and have bad moral fiber (I'll assume this is a normal saying for y'all elsewhere, but that sounds like a nationalistic dog whistle to my ears).
It is especially bizarre to claim that Americans are incapable of direct action a few years after the country had some pretty explosive sustained protests against police violence and racism. The US is filled with broken people, yes, but not because of some nebulous moral failing, and it's the broken government you have an issue with, not the poor fools who were born here.
Looking to the mentioned protests a few years back might explain the lack of similar reaction now. They burned youth prisons, occupied police stations, ran for office, took to the streets, were shot at, gassed, and went to jail. For what? Nothing changed endured, the establishment "left" abandoned the movement and helped undo any change that occured, the government clamped down harder on dissent, and Trump got reelected. Maybe the methods of resistance have to change to succeed, you cant keep fighting the war of yesterday and expect to win after all, and you sure don't have to publicize your actions for online strangers to check your moral fiber.
Posting may be meaningless, but I'd say all this to your face if we were talking in person too. Communication is how we change and change minds, and leaving nonsense unchallenged is how we got into this mess in the first place, and I won't make that mistake here or in my non digital life.
I am not the enemy and I am genuinely sorry for your hardship (though not nearly as much as for people born into poverty, war and genocide in far lass fortunate countries)
Americans trying to justify themselves on social media seems like a waste of energy and focus and its probably not good for mental health. Outside opinion that contradicts the narratives we have in our heads is important. My opinion might be wrong but its a genuine observation. My very real fear is we can't rely on US citizens to fight for their democracy anymore and that has global implications for the world and my children's future. Please prove me wrong. I love to learn new things. The BLM protests were huge but perhaps they turned from grass roots outrage into a social media phenomenon instead of a real effective political movement.
Protecting our kids is an issue that cuts across all beliefs, races, classes to the heart of our humanity, the most basic goodness that unites our species. I think the turning point, if such a thing exists, may have been Columbine, 1999. Not the bad guys on 9/11, not Putin election interference or MAGA. That is the issue that would have really outraged most countries. Millions on the streets protesting. Politicians of all parties scrambling to act. The shootings kept getting worse every year and it was swept under the carpet. More than the homelessness, wealth inequality, healthcare, that makes me worry a lot for your future and by extension the rest of us. We are definitely drifting to the right here and are a worse society as a result but for all our similarities and weaknesses that is still the the most fundamental issue that separates your politics and society from ours which is why I think we can never really be in your situation (we also don't have the historical acrimony and economic disadvantage stemming from a bloody civil war).
But where will they deport you to?
Ehhh? Checkmate ICE.
Oh right.
Sorry.
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No masks, and saying the quiet part out loud?
One could say he is "mask off"
What's an illegal protest? I thought first amendment speech covered that
Also, how can he expel a student from a school he doesn't control? or does he mean expel students from the country?
a school he doesn't control
If the school receives any federal funds, he is somewhat in control
Christ, you had to ask. We really do live in interesting time.
My apologies, its not real that i know of. But god damn it seems like the next step doesnt it?
Cheers mate
Yep. Nationwide nonviolent sit in protests? Pass laws to make it legal to run them down on a car if you feel threatened.
Violent storming of the seat of our nations power and symbolic political heart? Oh that's just some guys being dudes.
The schools don't give a shit about free speech either.
Trump and the schools just want to attack anti-genocide protestors.
A third student was expelled from Columbia's Barnard College on Friday for pro-Palestinian activism that took place on campus last year - ten months after disciplinary proceedings started against them.MEE staff (Middle East Eye)
Since many answers aren't actually answering the question...
My comment is largely wrong!! See the reply below
~~Most places require a permit to assemble en masse. There are "free speech zones" where you can create large gatherings without any kind of advance notice or permit or whatever. Most universities have a free speech zone towards the middle of their campuses. Cities will also often have at least one but somewhere that doesn't inconvenience commerce, like a park or near city hall.~~
~~Most mass assembly requires a permit and sometimes a fee, even in public places. Following this prevents arrest by "disturbing the peace" or other such laws, usually.~~
~~How this squares with the first amendment is interpretation. Individual freedom of speech is protected except very specific public order and safety things, e.g. calling for violence. Coordinated, mass freedom of speech is perceived as a fast path to rioting.~~
~~I'm not saying this is right, but this is my understanding of how things work. I'm not a lawyer or an expert in these matters. This is just what I learned from activist friends in my university time ages ago.~~
As for expulsion, public universities are run by states. To my understand, Trump has no legal mechanism to do this. He's just talking out of his ass or expects to bully public institutions into expelling students by threatening to withhold department of education funding... but he's planning to kill that anyway, so 🤷♂️
I spent most of my 20s doing grassroots campaigning, with a large part of it being protest planning and organization. You generally do not need a permit to conduct protests on public property, even large ones, in the USA.
The exceptions are very specific; i.e. blocking roads may require a permit.
aclu.org/know-your-rights/prot…
The First Amendment protects your right to assemble and express your views through protest. However, police and other government officials are allowed to place certain narrow restrictions on the exercise of speech rights.American Civil Liberties Union
What’s an illegal protest? I
Opposing genocide.
I thought first amendment speech covered that
Oh you precious child.
Also, how can he expel a student from a school he doesn’t control? or does he mean expel students from the country?
The schools don't need Trump to expel their own students.
A third student was expelled from Columbia's Barnard College on Friday for pro-Palestinian activism that took place on campus last year - ten months after disciplinary proceedings started against them.MEE staff (Middle East Eye)
No. Even that limitation is unconstitutional. Look up the actual convictions and appeal rates for them
The most recent one is just a couple of months old where a guy threatened Kevin McCarthy, the House speaker, over 100 times on the phone and he only got probation because the judge knew the prison sentence wouldn’t withstand appeal.
that's literally why blocking roads in protest is so effective. enough angry calls to the mayor office due to people being late for work etc, is how protesting puts pressure on representatives to actually represent the people.
or did you think that huddling on sidewalks holding signs was supposed to do something?
Blocking roads in protest has proven effective at exactly one thing: Increasing the enforcement and penalties for jaywalking.
It is counterproductive at everything else.
did you think that huddling on sidewalks holding signs was supposed to do something?
Where did I say huddle on sidewalks?
I think JSO should be firebombing ICE car dealerships, gas stations, muffler shops, and other entities and agents of the oil industry. Not harassing victims of that industry.
I think it’s probably like more roads = more permits needed to protest.
I’m in the US and all too familiar with how car centric our infrastructure is. On top of the permit thing, our angry rushed populace will demonize you for protesting anything if you’re blocking the road to do it. You could be giving CPR to a toddler and within minutes some emotional support truck would be running you over or rolling coal in your face.
I didn’t think it was possible to hate this fucker more and more each day and yet here we are.
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."John F. Kennedy
I'm not sure if you've realized, but that means nothing. It has become abundantly clear that the law (and lawsuits) are used by the ruling class and not against them. When used against them, it doesn't matter. They either ignore the fines, pay the pennies, tie it up in court, or in some other way get off scot free.
I'm all for protesting, but make no mistake, people will be made an example of, and it won't be the oppressors.
All federal funding will stop
That's the only part here anyone needs to know.
He'll threaten to pull funding for his stupid pet issues first, then pull it anyways for everyone else.
Therefore, fucking ignore his threats, nothing you can do will ever appease him and he will go back on his own word like it's a bodily function.
The country that did the Million Man March would rather cuck for this guy now.
Yes daddy. Ok daddy. You’re so manly we love you.
There was a poll a few days before the famous march on Washington that culminated in King's "I have a dream speech" and two thirds of Americans thought the march was unamerican.
America has always hated uppity protesters demanding rights.
being necessary to the security of a free State
If the people with more guns think that the State is free there is no need to actually use them
Yeah but they are losing out because of all of this as well. A crashing economy will screw everyone over regardless of how they vote. It's not like any of his plans have policies in them to protect his supporters, he doesn't care about his own supporters.
In 4 years time he'll either no longer be able to remain president and will step down due to term limits, or he will have completely taken control and he'll be in charge indefinitely as an actual dictator. Either way he doesn't need his supporters anymore.
KE arms
Guerrilla Tactical
KAK Industries
but if you think voting with your dollar is going to have enough impact to deter you from getting WHATEVER YOU CAN, then you don't understand how a war works. don't be a liability. don't be stupid. the time for protesting and boycotting is OVER.
This is absolutely absurd. People have a right to a lawful assembly.
Anyone supporting this guy is insane. Literally trying to become an emperor
He doesn't have to try. The Supreme Court made him one last year.
Isn't that fun!? /s
Two minutes later: we don't have enough skilled people to make Teslas and computer chips.
Four minutes later: I have an idea, let's hire immigrants.
Six minutes later: we hate immigrants, they are stealing our jobs.
I'm sure that will work well in a country with more guns then people. And I'm sure we will not see more Mario brothers and cousins doing something unexpected.
/s
My point was that it can get bad really fast and I'm sure that there are already people who practice shooting oranges and maybe thinking of shooting a bigger orange.
*I'm not saying this to encourage gun violence. Just that probably someone already thought to do a Mario brother on the big orange.
Yes.
Students say Biden risks ‘losing entire generation of voters’ over his Gaza policy and condemnation of college protests.Jillian Kestler-D'Amours (Al Jazeera)
What alternative did Bernie Sanders support? The same fucking guys that beat up American students protesting. And we saw how ready the Democrats were towards criticism when Kamala said "I'm speaking".
The supposed "far more ready to crticize bullshit" LMAO. In practise, regardless of what each claims, Democrats and Republicans are two wings of the same party.
I honestly wish I could agree with you.
What alternative did Bernie Sanders support? The same fucking guys that beat up American students protesting. And we saw how ready the Democrats were towards criticism when Kamala said "I'm speaking".
The supposed "far more ready to crticize bullshit" LMAO. In practise, regardless of what each claims, Democrats and Republicans are two wings of the same party.
You do yourself and any potential ally a disservice when you spout negative bullshit like this. And it is bullshit because what you're saying is nonsensical and fucking being upvoted (come on lemmy, we're better than this).
What do pro-Palestinian student protesters at US universities want?
They are demanding that their schools, many with massive endowments, financially divest from Israel.
What is the effective message of protesting at a university over Trump? People have been organizing protests, but what part are you demanding the students actually protest? Just... protest Trump in general? at the University? Protesting till he's taken out of office or some action is performed?
I honestly want to see the rest of the government make a choice of bowing or standing up to the would-be king before we call to send in the children. Let us know where everyone in the system stands because once Uni kids get involved with mass protesting.... it's gonna get dicey real fast.
I really hope the unwarranted attacks that everyone is spewing at each other is statistically on the decline, it really needs to be shot down the instant it's seen so we don't have actual trolls and bots getting footholds.
Hundreds have been arrested as colleges struggle to deal with encampments, days before graduation.By Sam Cabral & Ana Faguy (BBC News)
American students should protest for as long as it takes to end a genocide.
The current fascist is a direct result of previous fascists. Genocide normalizes fascism.
This liberal support for genocide and fascism is a major part of the problem.
Theory is that it’s on the list.
They change the name of they country and the claim the constitution doesn’t apply.
Americans, come to Europe !
you'll be treated like human beings here
you’ll be treated like human beings here
You're talking about white people, right?
Yeah, you guys have a great, long history of being super chill about immigrants. Maybe our marginalized trans members of society can go hang out in the Romani or Syrian camps and hear about how wonderful European hospitality can be. Oh wait, most of them won't be able to, because they don't have an in-demand technical degree and European countries have strict immigration requirements.
What's happening in America is starting to happen in Europe too. We also thought we were pretty nice, before the mask came off.
No Masks!
Yeah, okay. With a pandemic on?
You gotta at least wear a surgical mask in public for your health, in minecraft.
Your doctor could probably write you a recommendation, prior to the protest, in case you have any legal issues.
They would say "look he has an American flag. I see nothing but a peaceful protest by true patriots"..
I hate myself for typing that given the context of that vile picture.
I used to be the pride of my family for having finished college. Now it's demonized by them.
I feel for the students of today. College was an important time for me. I experienced a lot of new ideas, my mind was opened. I didn't get to do much in grad school, but my first four years of college changed me and I wouldn't be the same without those experiences. The way the situation is escalating we may see colleges completely locked down or even abolished.
Ah yes, Lemmy.world
AKA "I can't believe it's not Reddit!"
This, in part,is also the educated vs. the uneducated.
Most of Trump's policiet are obviously dumb when given a single thought, but you have to be able to make that throught. The vast majority of magas are not capable of making a first, let alone second, thought
“Thank you for your attention to this matter.”
Every time I scroll past this image, that’s the line that gets me. Bold threatening declaration by fascist dictator, then ends like a work email reminding you not to leave food in the cafeteria fridge over the weekend.
"You know the best strategy to counter this is to do nothing, it will burn itself out after awhile. If a few people die or get imprisoned well that's okay as long as I don't have to do anything difficult or will affect my portfolio and control. "
obviously I made this quote up but it is how I feel about the people in power that say they are against this administration but really are doing jack shit to support or engage the population. Sure there are some that are doing somethings and I appreciate that, but fuck man do most of the "opposition" party really not have a spine? Like what the fuck, there are millions of citizens that are genuinely scared for their life and freedom and all we are getting is crickets...
That's because left-wing politicians are still politicians. They want to remain politicians they don't want to end up getting arrested or lose their jobs, so they are only going to push back against this to the limit of which they think they can get away with, which basically means making statements, but otherwise not really doing anything.
If you want action you'll have to do it yourself. Unfortunately this does present a bit of a problem because you are then playing into the narrative that the Right have, that everyone who opposes them is a criminal. Because by definition you'll have to commit crimes in order to oppose them, since they will make opposing them a crime. Welcome to the wonderful circular logic of extremists.
Isn't the democrats plan in this situation to call the cops? To use the worlds best justice system? Just call the cops. You know, the ones that murder people/dogs for fun, beat their spouse, make up charges to fuck your life up, and assault protestors?
Just call the cops. I'm sure the wealthy democrats in their gated communities are right on this one. They didn't carefully craft a bipartisan police state alongside the republicans for nothing. They know better then us dirty working class folk
Just call the cops.
/$
they have the ~~situation under control.~~ students silenced and expelled.
$ 99,000 - National Median Income is less than $100 thousand.
$ 1,000,000 - 1 Million Dollars.
$ 485,000,000 - Cut Funds to International Relations and whatever.
$ 1,000,000,000 - 1 Billion Dollars. There are over 400 Billionaires in America.
$ 22,000,000,000 - Cut Funds to American Social Serivces through HHS (Human & Health Services).
$ 244,000,000,000 - Elon Musks Net Worth.
$ 1,620,000,000,000 - 1 Trillion Dollars - Meta (Facebooks) Corporate Net Worth.
$19,900,000,000,000 - The U.S. National Debt in Jan 2017 (Obama to Trump)
$27,800,000,000,000 - The U.S. National Debt in Jan 2021 (Trump to Biden)
$36,000,000,000,000 - The U.S. National Debt in Jan 2025 (Biden to Trump)
I prefer eliminating them outright.
Let every single drop of their stocks be rendered worthless by abolition of capitalism!
And improve the livehoods of the "middle" and lower class, ie. the proletariat - but in such a way that for them it is far more beneficial to give up private property.
And the media has to be liberated from the shackle of fascism!
Illegal protests.
Okay so since protests are an expression of opinion, and you got that pesky first amendment, all protests are legal, so this tweet is a nothing burger.
That or free speech is dead. Those amendments aren’t laws of nature, they need to be maintained.
So we’ll see.
There's a lot of nuance about how you do it. You can't protest in the middle of a highway, for instance.
aclu.org/know-your-rights/prot…
The First Amendment protects your right to assemble and express your views through protest. However, police and other government officials are allowed to place certain narrow restrictions on the exercise of speech rights.American Civil Liberties Union
i am pretty sure every school and university will get a staff of attorneys, lawyers and judges to determine if the protest might be illegal
since there is no way a teacher can make that "decision"
Yes, fuck this. And fuck the previous guy and every president before that.
He’s explicitly demonizing nonviolent demonstrators and implicitly supporting the disproportionate and violent police response.The New Republic
"Land stolen by slavers."
Actually factual, not just some phony religion.
Blocking roads in protest has proven effective at exactly one thing: Increasing the enforcement and penalties for jaywalking.
Well... no.
Exactly.
This disgusting muslem black socialist commie coming here telling us what to do and to think and forcing his DEI Woke idiologie onto us!!! /s
Yeah. It had nothing at all to do with the ninety fucking million people that didn’t vote. I wonder how many of those were the smug entitled stay at home single issue assholes there were whining And yelling at everyone here all the way to November.
.
News flash bud: Everyone is in opposition to genocide.
Regardless of whatever bullshit accusation you hurl at people. Refusing to vote because you manufactured enough outrage to believe your own bullshit is absolutely defined as single-issue voting. You know this shit was going to happen- and you knew it was going to be exponentially worse under Trump- but you stood aside anyway.
Take your bow.
And what? I get that you’re fishing for reasons to report people for as that is what you do, but anyone can see that there is nothing at all even close to resembling “holocaust denial” about anything I said, so you can go ahead and put that little straw man away- it’s not going to work on me.
Oh they do. But it’s apparently far too complicated for you to understand and sadly, I lost my patience to explain it to you people back in November.
Be wrong.
…. Says the person that is somehow able to rationalize that doing nothing at all can bring the change you demand from others.
Because as we all know: History is RIFE with examples of people not doing jack-shit while reaping the benefits of their inaction.
Are you an llm?
Dehumanizing others? Sounds like something a republican would do.
The American politicians basically barred the ability for any other party to get into power, until people gave up going to vote, and fascism won by a third of the votes.
It all started before the Red Scare. The moment the Robber Barons got their plans thwarted, they started planning so it would never happen again, and they played the long, long game.
You would have a point if "protesting" was "life". But it's not.
When demonstrators were pissed off at Elon Musk, they didn't picket grocery stores and kindergartens. they didnt blockade old folks homes, delay firefighters and ambulances.
They burned Tesla dealerships.
JSO could learn a thing or two from these anti-Musk demonstrators.
like this
Someplaceunknown likes this.
Excellent.
Might I suggest that instead of targeting fellow victims for undue harassment, you direct your attention toward the actual perpetrators and their supporters? For environmental causes, might I suggest some sort of shop where an oil-based product like gasoline or diesel fuel is sold? Perhaps an entity that sells or services the vehicles that consume those fuels.
Perhaps you could publish a manifesto telling the public and these businesses alike what businesses need to do in order to avoid Molotov-flavored "civil disobedience". Things like "a majority of the cars on a dealer's lot must be EVs" and "EVs should be priced lower than comparable ICE vehicles". Or "fuel stations should have at least as many charging stations as fuel pumps".
When you publish your manifesto, make sure it gets sent to insurance companies, preferably the companies insuring the businesses responsible for the environmental catastrophe we are facing.
We have enough laws against public use of the street. There is no need to demonstrate for more.
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No doubt, no doubt. There are plenty of articles claiming JSO protests are effective.
Of course, if they were actually effective, you wouldn't need to point to news articles promoting the virtues of standing around in the street. You'd be able to point to oil consumption rates. If their protests were actually effective, oil consumption rates would be falling.
The reality is that those articles do nothing but make you feel good, like something is being done. But reality doesn't care about feelings, or the fiddling articles designed to make us feel good while the world burns.
If that is the only metric you are looking it, kind of. It slumped during COVID and has looked like it's tailing off somewhat. Without tax breaks, subsidies and support for other forms of transport, say, we will not shake our dependence.
But, we can look at specific countries and see if those things have helped on a national scale, like Norway, for example, which has seen consumption decline since 2018. And Sweden. And Japan. And Germany. And...
Norway, for example, which has seen consumption decline since 2018.
They started obstructing traffic in 2022, not 2018. Norway's consumption has increased, significantly, since they began obstructing traffic.
Japan's decline since then is commensurate with its population decline. Germany's and Sweden's are flat. UK is up even more than Norway.
I am telling you when their trend started. Norway's consumption has not increased, it is down on 2018, as I said. It had a slight decline in 2023 (the increase between 2020 and 2022 is when people stopped driving during COVID then came back to restart its downward trend).
Japan’s decline since then is commensurate with its population decline.
Actually no, if you know what commensurate means. The population has dropped around 4% since 2008, yet oil consumption has been decreasing since 1996.
Germany is similar in terms of consumption, Sweden likewise.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_g…
You're giving JSO traffic obstructions credit for declines that happened decades before they came into existence, and in countries where they havent actually disrupted traffic.
You're giving them credit for "declines" that have actually been increases since the time they started regularly obstructing traffic in 2022.
Obstructing traffic is not an effective means of protest. Target actual agents and entities associated with the oil industry, not the victims.
Sigh... and how would you like to quantify that when there are so many factors?
Obstructing traffic is not an effective means of protest. Target actual agents and entities associated with the oil industry, not the victims.
They are effective and bring about awareness among other things.
and how would you like to quantify that
I would like to spend less time talking to environmentalists about useless people harassing victims of the oil industry, and more time actually targeting the oil industry.
For that, you don't need to identify massive, centralized oil infrastructure. You need to look at the oil industry's agents and operations within your own community. There is no shortage of businesses associated with the supplies and maintenance of ICE vehicles. Every one of those businesses needs to feel direct pressure to focus on EVs, other transportation alternatives, or go out of business.
Gas/petrol stations and car dealerships, for example. Set a standard for them to follow; target them for an appropriate degree of hostility when they don't.
Businesses that meet these standards are supporting the "transportation" industry. Businesses that fail to meet these standards are supporting the "oil" industry.
JSO's website makes it clear that "arrests" are an important part of their demonstrations. There are plenty of arrest-worthy actions they can take at a gas station. They can create plenty of "awareness" at an ICE car dealership, and they can do it without convincing the general public to support cops and right-wing politicians.
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