Well, there is some missing context. In the context of software and systems development, a lot of us devoted our lives to building things. The creative energy lasts a lot longer than 8 hours a day. When you arre developing your career, that extra time you put in goes to building new skills to help your career.
If you want a daily routine then an 8 hour job, 40 or less hours is plenty. The Google co-founder wasn't talking about routine jobs. Labor organizers are.
@Will I don't know if you're aware, but software and systems developer is a routine job - just like any other. The same reasons for the 40 hour work week that apply to other jobs also apply to these jobs. It's frankly offensive that you seem to think that they are somehow different in some special way.
If it's worth it for a person to put in more hours into investing into their own skills development, that should be something optional for them to do outside of work, in whatever ways they find fulfilling and sustainable for themselves.
OR, we could parrot billionaire propaganda designed to destroy labor laws and make workers work more for less pay in dangerous conditions detrimental to the health of the workers and their families.
I dunno, I'm just really committed to the idea that workers are humans first, productivity engines second ... or third ... or like way way way way down the list of priorities.
I have a son and daughter who are special needs, and will likely never become productivity engines. But they're still human beings. I know my moral priorities over which of those is more important.
Itβs frankly offensive that you seem to think that they are somehow different in some special way.
That is a weird response.
software and systems developer is a routine job
That is also a weird response.
workers are humans first, productivity engines second
That sort of explains why you reacted that way. I agree totally that "workers" are human first. But not all jobs are done by "workers". Some jobs are done by creators, people who are in a position to control their own fate, and freely choose how to engage on the job. They tell the boss what they are going to do, not the other way around. Not all jobs are routine.
When i was in development, I was the boss of myself, and often we would tell the middle management what to do. Actually we don't tell them, we teach them how to run the business, how to make use of our creative efforts.
Do you understand what I am saying?
I'm not advocating businesses exploit people, I'm advocating that creative people take th
... show more
Itβs frankly offensive that you seem to think that they are somehow different in some special way.
That is a weird response.
software and systems developer is a routine job
That is also a weird response.
workers are humans first, productivity engines second
That sort of explains why you reacted that way. I agree totally that "workers" are human first. But not all jobs are done by "workers". Some jobs are done by creators, people who are in a position to control their own fate, and freely choose how to engage on the job. They tell the boss what they are going to do, not the other way around. Not all jobs are routine.
When i was in development, I was the boss of myself, and often we would tell the middle management what to do. Actually we don't tell them, we teach them how to run the business, how to make use of our creative efforts.
Do you understand what I am saying?
I'm not advocating businesses exploit people, I'm advocating that creative people take the lead to make use of resources. The company is there to provide the resources.
Factory jobs are not like that, they are routine, where the "worker" has little agency. That is the situation where you are concerned about exploitation, and i agree with you in that situation.
Uhh ... yeah, and it's still ridiculous. It just tells me you are monumentally self centered, because you didn't notice that you are working with hundreds if not thousands of workers. Not every software developer is a "contract worker", and every "contract worker" has worked with traditional FTEs.
It's offensive that you ignore the existence of the FTEs, without whom no enterprise would be able to function, and thus you wouldn't have any contracts. The FTEs are the backbone that an enterprise absolutely depend upon to actually function. Contract workers come and go, and when they go it's up to the FTEs to keep whatever they produced functional.
Software developers are not generally "creatives", although there are "creatives" that program video games and such. But that's really irrelevant. All professional "creatives" are workers also. They are not "special" in some way that requires them to not have the same rights as other workers.
You may have a point. I grew up poor and soon realized i didn't like the idea of a factory worker. I was pulling green chain in lumber mills at age 14, washing cars, cleaning restaurant kitchens at 16, and i said BS to this worker stuff. So yeah maybe i'm self-centered.
Anyway the meme mis-compared creatives and workers. Creatives want to work long hours. Workers, on the other hand have more of a life than just their job. And it is misleading to compare the two. That was my response.
The fact is that 60 hours a week is, indeed, a sweet spot for some jobs, and not exploitation of those people, like me, who have decided to be their own agent. That was my point. The meme misrepresented things. Labor organizers protect routine workers not creatives (or whatever you call independents).
And i would encourage other people to be their own agent if and when they can, and in sympathy with your perspective, I also encourage (insist) that employers not exploit their workers.
Michael Fenichel
in reply to πππππ π³οΈββ§οΈπ¦ β’ β’ β’#GoogleIsEvil
"That is all"
Samuel Smith likes this.
Will
in reply to πππππ π³οΈββ§οΈπ¦ β’ β’ β’Well, there is some missing context. In the context of software and systems development, a lot of us devoted our lives to building things. The creative energy lasts a lot longer than 8 hours a day. When you arre developing your career, that extra time you put in goes to building new skills to help your career.
If you want a daily routine then an 8 hour job, 40 or less hours is plenty. The Google co-founder wasn't talking about routine jobs. Labor organizers are.
Adam Hunt
in reply to πππππ π³οΈββ§οΈπ¦ β’ β’ β’Isaac Kuo
in reply to πππππ π³οΈββ§οΈπ¦ β’ β’ β’@Will I don't know if you're aware, but software and systems developer is a routine job - just like any other. The same reasons for the 40 hour work week that apply to other jobs also apply to these jobs. It's frankly offensive that you seem to think that they are somehow different in some special way.
If it's worth it for a person to put in more hours into investing into their own skills development, that should be something optional for them to do outside of work, in whatever ways they find fulfilling and sustainable for themselves.
OR, we could parrot billionaire propaganda designed to destroy labor laws and make workers work more for less pay in dangerous conditions detrimental to the health of the workers and their families.
Andrew Pam likes this.
Isaac Kuo
in reply to πππππ π³οΈββ§οΈπ¦ β’ β’ β’I dunno, I'm just really committed to the idea that workers are humans first, productivity engines second ... or third ... or like way way way way down the list of priorities.
I have a son and daughter who are special needs, and will likely never become productivity engines. But they're still human beings. I know my moral priorities over which of those is more important.
like this
Andrew Pam and Samuel Smith like this.
Will
in reply to πππππ π³οΈββ§οΈπ¦ β’ β’ β’That is a weird response.
That is also a weird response.
That sort of explains why you reacted that way. I agree totally that "workers" are human first. But not all jobs are done by "workers". Some jobs are done by creators, people who are in a position to control their own fate, and freely choose how to engage on the job. They tell the boss what they are going to do, not the other way around. Not all jobs are routine.
When i was in development, I was the boss of myself, and often we would tell the middle management what to do. Actually we don't tell them, we teach them how to run the business, how to make use of our creative efforts.
Do you understand what I am saying?
I'm not advocating businesses exploit people, I'm advocating that creative people take th
... show moreThat is a weird response.
That is also a weird response.
That sort of explains why you reacted that way. I agree totally that "workers" are human first. But not all jobs are done by "workers". Some jobs are done by creators, people who are in a position to control their own fate, and freely choose how to engage on the job. They tell the boss what they are going to do, not the other way around. Not all jobs are routine.
When i was in development, I was the boss of myself, and often we would tell the middle management what to do. Actually we don't tell them, we teach them how to run the business, how to make use of our creative efforts.
Do you understand what I am saying?
I'm not advocating businesses exploit people, I'm advocating that creative people take the lead to make use of resources. The company is there to provide the resources.
Factory jobs are not like that, they are routine, where the "worker" has little agency. That is the situation where you are concerned about exploitation, and i agree with you in that situation.
stefani banerian
in reply to πππππ π³οΈββ§οΈπ¦ β’ β’ β’factory jobs don't have to be "routine"
that is a choice made and enforced.
and it prevents workers from being creative.
development is a job. no better than others.
Isaac Kuo likes this.
Isaac Kuo
in reply to πππππ π³οΈββ§οΈπ¦ β’ β’ β’"Do you understand what I am saying?"
Uhh ... yeah, and it's still ridiculous. It just tells me you are monumentally self centered, because you didn't notice that you are working with hundreds if not thousands of workers. Not every software developer is a "contract worker", and every "contract worker" has worked with traditional FTEs.
It's offensive that you ignore the existence of the FTEs, without whom no enterprise would be able to function, and thus you wouldn't have any contracts. The FTEs are the backbone that an enterprise absolutely depend upon to actually function. Contract workers come and go, and when they go it's up to the FTEs to keep whatever they produced functional.
Software developers are not generally "creatives", although there are "creatives" that program video games and such. But that's really irrelevant. All professional "creatives" are workers also. They are not "special" in some way that requires them to not have the same rights as other workers.
stefani banerian likes this.
Will
in reply to πππππ π³οΈββ§οΈπ¦ β’ β’ β’You may have a point. I grew up poor and soon realized i didn't like the idea of a factory worker. I was pulling green chain in lumber mills at age 14, washing cars, cleaning restaurant kitchens at 16, and i said BS to this worker stuff. So yeah maybe i'm self-centered.
Anyway the meme mis-compared creatives and workers. Creatives want to work long hours. Workers, on the other hand have more of a life than just their job. And it is misleading to compare the two. That was my response.
The fact is that 60 hours a week is, indeed, a sweet spot for some jobs, and not exploitation of those people, like me, who have decided to be their own agent. That was my point. The meme misrepresented things. Labor organizers protect routine workers not creatives (or whatever you call independents).
And i would encourage other people to be their own agent if and when they can, and in sympathy with your perspective, I also encourage (insist) that employers not exploit their workers.