systemd lost the plot a long time ago. they stopped following the Unix philosophy and now they're busy adding nonsense like age verification. Just like Firefox, systemd doesn't understand its core user base. There are plenty of distros without systemd
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bazkie π©πΌβπ» bitplanes π΅
Unknown parent • • •blegh! this type of dependency on something that should be totally independent is a sign of structural failure, i suppose..
i've been a debian fanby for the longest time but maybe it's time to look into other distros. can anyone recommend me which are the most "mainstream"/well-maintained non-systemd distros?
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Chaotic Unicorn
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •WTF?
edit: github.com/systemd/systemd/pulβ¦
userdb: add birthDate field to JSON user records by dylanmtaylor Β· Pull Request #40954 Β· systemd/systemd
GitHubDistroWatch
in reply to bazkie π©πΌβπ» bitplanes π΅ • • •@bazkie @nazokiyoubinbou Devuan is Debian with an alternative init.
Antix provides multiple init implementations.
FreeBSD is not hard if you are used to Debian.
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synlogic4242
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •I'm most worried about debut of AGENTS.md file and what says about judgment of project leaders and maintainers, and who they allow to touch codebase. millions of folks de facto need to trust every frickin commit into systemd since its on the critical path on tons of Linux hosts by now. I saw one individual in particular, working on one key subsystem who I would not trust on a system this critical, esp if that individ is also "using AI" and also gets to blame any malware-enabling commits "on some AI" rather than their own brain/hand. they could be setting us up
I'm a fan of Lennart Poettering in general but I worry he's gotten distracted by spinning up his startup Amutable
gjerma
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •haui βπ΅πΈ
in reply to gjerma • • •I still think politics should be done by groups like eff and fsf. The indicidual projects should just ask for direction from them. If that isnt possible, making some kind of union for foss workers or collectives could work. I still think code specialists and politucs specialists are seldom the same person which is the root of the problem imo.
@nixCraft
bazkie π©πΌβπ» bitplanes π΅
Unknown parent • • •βΎοΈ Water
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •DFX4509B (Joshua Mason)
in reply to βΎοΈ Water • •Marco
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DFX4509B (Joshua Mason)
in reply to Marco • •No, GNOME hard-requires systemd now, and I'm worried KDE *might* once they start to phase out SDDM.
If you want GNOME without systemd, Cinnamon and MATE are two good alternatives on that front.
Also, since you're on Arch, I'm going to recommend Artix as a relatively low-friction alt-init distro to move to.
Although, on Artix, you're going to run into some dependency problems with certain packages, such as steam-native-runtime, unless you enable Arch's [extra] and [multilib] repos.
Finally, just for convenience's sake since this repo makes AUR usage easier by offering most of the AUR as precompiled binaries, I'm going to recommend enabling [chaotic-aur] on Arch distros in general, and I also recommend installing yay for a pacman wrapper.
Addendum: Artix dropped GNOME a while ago due to its hard systemd dependency.
Marco
in reply to DFX4509B (Joshua Mason) • • •jandi
in reply to DistroWatch • • •@distrowatch @bazkie @nazokiyoubinbou I've had an excellent experience with MX, which recently reinstated their classic dual-init support: mxlinux.org/blog/mx-25-dual-inβ¦
Now it's dual-init by default. My favorite Debian-based distro.
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hokid
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •Nazo
in reply to jandi • • •r1w1s1
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •glad Slackware stays out of this π different approaches are fine, but I still prefer simple rc scripts and small tools over one big system doing everything.
#slackware
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jandi
in reply to Nazo • • •The distro supports both. As you can see in the linked post you can easily remove either, but you can also pick and choose at every boot, for any purpose (troubleshooting, dev, debug, etc). MX is a decidedly pro-user distro.
In the same vein, you can use flatpaks, snaps, appimages, debs, containers, whatever, if you so choose. It's quite flexible but not (IMO) overwhelming.
Still, of course, not everything for everyone, it might not be for you.
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π³οΈββ§οΈ ChloΓ©: ADhdSL 512Kb/s
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •We're fucked.
SillySam
in reply to π³οΈββ§οΈ ChloΓ©: ADhdSL 512Kb/s • • •@jenesuispersonne KDE is only enforcing systemd on their login manager, not the desktop. One of their contributors cleared this up.
reddit.com/r/kde/comments/1r68β¦
Oblomov
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •Snosrapkungfu (They/them)
Unknown parent • • •Ageless Linux β Software for Humans of Indeterminate Age
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Siim OΕ‘ur
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •Cainmark Does Not Comply π² reshared this.
bazkie π©πΌβπ» bitplanes π΅
in reply to Snosrapkungfu (They/them) • • •ArchiveScribe
in reply to bazkie π©πΌβπ» bitplanes π΅ • • •Cainmark Does Not Comply π² reshared this.
Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π±
Unknown parent • • •@nazokiyoubinbou
This is almost entirely the problem at my end. I also have spent many years on various distros from Mandriva, to Magiea, to Ubuntu, to Garuda.
To the best of my knowledge all of those that still exist are systemd houses.
If I want to move away from systemd, it seems I have to go with off-band distros, but I still want my KDE desktop!
@bazkie @nixCraft
Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π±
Unknown parent • • •@nazokiyoubinbou
Very interesting, thank you. I've bookmarked that to look at perhaps tomorrow afternoon. I'll certainly try it out in a VM, if that is doable.
@bazkie @nixCraft
Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π±
Unknown parent • • •@nazokiyoubinbou
Currently struggling to find an actual installable ISO. If it's simply a framework that needs a distro around it, then that's outside of my skill-level, I suspect.
@bazkie @nixCraft
Nazo
in reply to Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π± • • •@bytebro @bazkie In installation under images: devuan.org/os/documentation/inβ¦
You probably want desktop or netinstall.
Devuan Excalibur Install Guide | Devuan GNU+Linux Free Operating System
Devuan GNU+LinuxDistroWatch
in reply to Nazo • • •DistroWatch
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Nazo
in reply to DistroWatch • • •I don't see how though. That's why I was asking of course. Just if both are installed and both are running then you get the leanness of sysv and the bloat of systemd... Which means just that much more instead of less....
In other words it's not just "best of both worlds" but literally straight up "both worlds," meaning best, worst, and a combination of the two all in one.
I just don't see how you can have 1+2 and not get 3 instead of 1.
Nazo
in reply to DistroWatch • • •Spirit
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •jandi
in reply to DistroWatch • • •Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π±
in reply to Nazo • • •@nazokiyoubinbou
Got it, thanks!
@bazkie @nixCraft
DistroWatch
in reply to Nazo • • •jandi
Unknown parent • • •Nazo
in reply to jandi • • •jandi
in reply to Nazo • • •Cassidy James
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D2
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •systemd author Poettering decided to ridicule opposition to this earlier today. βLost the plotβ is how Iβd characterize his analogies. mastodon.social/@pid_eins/1162β¦
Lennart Poettering
2026-03-20 05:01:08
bjb
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •Devuan ftw!
#devuan #cultOfDevuan
DistroWatch
Unknown parent • • •Fahri Reza π
in reply to Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π± • • •captured
Worik
in reply to Nazo • • •@nazokiyoubinbou @distrowatch @jandi @bazkie
Snap packages make sense for IoT devices which can cause catastrophes if unpatched, due to their auto updating.
Drove me off Ubuntu as a desktop
Caden
Unknown parent • • •Arthfach π»
Unknown parent • • •Worik
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •I like Systemd
I hated the idea, at first. But once I started to use it, I liked it
The init script ecosystem was a, is a, tragic mess of many different approaches. Systemd is consistent and has good tooling.
Florent Viel π¦«
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •LumiWorx - Just Vote Dammit!
in reply to Florent Viel 𦫠• • •@luxifer
Sorry, but there is no logical reason for systemd to need details that specific and precise for any purpose other than age verification.
If it were for birthday lookups for 'well wishers', it would be held in the calendar app. If it were for parental control, it would be under that heading, and only as a toggle of yes/no, on access to XYZ.
To think that it has a place in systemd at all leads to a question of why any PPI data is necessary in ANY subsystem. It's not.
Cyberspice
in reply to Florent Viel 𦫠• • •DFX4509B (Joshua Mason)
in reply to Cyberspice • •It's in systemd to push it across the majority of the ecosystem by force. Next step for systemd if Amutable actually happens will be Android-style attestation, and then the majority of the Linux ecosystem will be as locked down as Android in terms of what you're allowed and not allowed to install and run.
Here's the Lemmy post talking about Amutable.
Unlogic
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •for those also asking "but nixCraft, what are these distros?" Here's a few links
nosystemd.org/#alternatives
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categoryβ¦
without-systemd.org/wiki/indexβ¦
No systemd - Resources against systemd and alternatives
nosystemd.orgAMS
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •MeaningfulBits
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •nieuemma
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •kwayk42
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •it was written by someone who works at microslop... er microshaft?
Uhhhh tinypenis, wait.... My crow soft
InfoSecBen
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •Is systemd as bad as boycott systemd is trying to make it? | LinuxBSDos.com
LinuxBSDos.comnieuemma
in reply to Snosrapkungfu (They/them) • • •Kingsley Bugarin PLY OAM π¦πΊ
in reply to bazkie π©πΌβπ» bitplanes π΅ • • •@bazkie
"can anyone recommend me which are the most "mainstream"/well-maintained non-systemd distros?"
I have been using PCLinuxOS for nearly two years.
It is a rolling distro and is often behind the latest software releases but it is rock solid.
It uses synaptic package manager with RPMs.
fdr
in reply to bazkie π©πΌβπ» bitplanes π΅ • • •GrumpyDad πΊπ¦π΅πΈ
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •an actual bus
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •Franz Strebel
in reply to bazkie π©πΌβπ» bitplanes π΅ • • •Radek π§
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •In systemd the age verification has been finally reverted
github.com/systemd/systemd/pulβ¦
Revert "userdb: add birthDate field to JSON user records (#40954)" by paramazo Β· Pull Request #41179 Β· systemd/systemd
GitHubArnim Sommer πͺπΊ
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •When I first heared of systemd, I thought 'huh, replicating the mistakes made in Windows?'
bazkie π©πΌβπ» bitplanes π΅
Unknown parent • • •bazkie π©πΌβπ» bitplanes π΅
in reply to Kingsley Bugarin PLY OAM π¦πΊ • • •thanks!
Expired Token
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •Here systemd evolves an existing schema in userdb to make it consistent across distros. The benefit is that if this stupid law sticks, distros can choose to comply easily. Moreover, it's a totally optional component.
Consistency and the ability to manage a system in a dynamic env with solid dependency management (versus static init.d scripts) is something systemd is brilliant at. I use Linux since 1995 and honestly, I find systemd is a big win.
John Smith
in reply to Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π± • • •@bytebro @nazokiyoubinbou @bazkie
agelesslinux.org/distros.html
Heres some options. I'm personally looking into Artix. Multiple DEs and KDE is one of them.
Ageless Linux β Distro Compliance Tracker
agelesslinux.orgJohn Smith
in reply to Snosrapkungfu (They/them) • • •@snosrapkungfu @nazokiyoubinbou @bazkie
agelesslinux.org/distros.html
It also comes with a list of options
Ageless Linux β Distro Compliance Tracker
agelesslinux.orgthetemp
in reply to nixCraft π§ • • •nieuemma
Unknown parent • • •Nazo
in reply to nieuemma • • •@nieuemma @snosrapkungfu @bazkie From what little I can tell it doesn't change a lot. It sets the userdb birthdate and keeps changing it and it sets the ID to its name as you said. It also throws in an arbitrary script that just simply says something to the effect of "error, unable to determine age" or whatever in a folder of its own that nothing would ever call. π
Basically every single part of it is more just for show than anything else. The one and only thing it does seriously I'm pretty sure people can manually do if this script can do it β without the potential breakage of the system identifying itself differently.
They also plan to do a "flatpak store for children" with stuff like an app that prints the text "peepee" really big. Like I said, it's all for show...
bazkie π©πΌβπ» bitplanes π΅
Unknown parent • • •@nazokiyoubinbou @sab38 well a few years back when it was a heated debate I remember it being pretty 50/50!
BUT I bet a lot of people at this point realize the anti systemd people were right and have jumped that sinking ship
bazkie π©πΌβπ» bitplanes π΅
Unknown parent • • •Nazo
Unknown parent • • •Ok, coming back to this, I tried Devuan and immediately saw issues like simply not being able to use pipewire-pulse at all. I had assumed they would have built workarounds for stuff like that, but it kind of looks like they haven't.
So now I'm looking at MX Linux again and still trying to wrap my head fully around its setup. It seems their KDE iso is systemd only, but also their XFCE4 option includes one for newer systems with a newer kernel, so I went ahead and installed that second XFCE4 option. It at no point asked me which init to use, but it seems to have systemd installed but not running or working.
Is it safe to assume this one will be the best compatibility balance without age-gate crap or will systemd's direction still infect it?
DistroWatch
in reply to Nazo • • •@nazokiyoubinbou @jandi @bazkie MX Linux gives you the choice of which init to run at boot time. You select which one you want from the boot menu.
As for your second question: it's too soon to tell. You would have better luck asking the MX Linux developers what their plans are.
Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π±
Unknown parent • • •@nazokiyoubinbou
Installed it in a Gnome-Boxes VM and not impressed with the WE. It doesn't automagically recognise my screen size on boot, unlike Ubuntu, Mint, Cachy, Tuxedo, Garuda, etc, do. And the best resolutions available in the Settings screen are not even close to what is needed.
I think this one goes down as a 'work-in-progress' for now.
@bazkie @nixCraft
Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π±
Unknown parent • • •@nazokiyoubinbou
Downloading MX as we speak. I'll play tomorrow, perhaps.
@bazkie @nixCraft
Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π±
Unknown parent • • •@nazokiyoubinbou
Devuan still refuses to, or is unable to, sort out a wide-screen on boot - according to my notes this should be about 3440x1440, and it doesn't seem to be able to handle that. Hey-ho, we'll look for other alternatives.
@bazkie @nixCraft
Nazo
in reply to Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π± • • •Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π±
in reply to Nazo • • •@nazokiyoubinbou
I get that, but many other distros seem to be able to work that out at the time of install. And no 'obvious' route post-install to make it work as it should. Obvs, currently, not a fan!
@bazkie @nixCraft
Nazo
in reply to Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π± • • •Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π±
in reply to Nazo • • •@nazokiyoubinbou
I tell you what - this has all been within Gnome-Boxes. Next time I'm bored and sober, I'll have ago at installing it on VirtualBox, which I believe I still have on here...!
@bazkie @nixCraft
Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π±
in reply to Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π± • • •@nazokiyoubinbou
Hah! Well that was interesting - I fired up VirtualBox for the first time in a long time, then told it to create a Devuan VM, with essentially the same config that the Gnome-Boxes one had. It crashed whilst booting the ISO, so didn't even get to a Live login! Colour me as 'less than comfortable' with it, right now.
@bazkie @nixCraft
Nazo
in reply to Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π± • • •@bytebro @bazkie There is something weird going on.
Uh...
Just to double check, your computer is stable, right? π
Honestly, I have no idea. You have really bad luck or something. Sorry.
Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π±
in reply to Nazo • • •@nazokiyoubinbou
Stable? Sure. It's a 2.5yr old Tuxedo laptop with 32GbRAM and 1Tb of SDD.
For each VM, I've given 16Gb of virtual RAM and 40GB of virtual HDD. The Gnome-Boxes one works, but has no clue about my graphics capabilities, and the VirtualBox one simply fails even to boot the ISO.
Most odd.
@bazkie @nixCraft
Nazo
in reply to Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π± • • •It really is super weird. Like I think their installer is based on an older version of the Debian installer, but it's basically just the Debian installer even.
Oh well. Give MX Linux a look?
Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π±
in reply to Nazo • • •Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π±
in reply to Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π± • • •@nazokiyoubinbou
BTW, to save me a lot of searching, do we know what distro (if any) MX might be derived from? Some of the VM managers like to try and guess stuff based on the base distro...
Nazo
in reply to Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π± • • •@bytebro They pretty much say it all on their website. It's based on Debian Stable, but integrates some things from antiX Linux. It very much resembles pure Debian, but the change to sysvinit does mean some stuff is funky and it doesn't look like they've changed everything. (I'm going to have to manually rig up an old fashioned init-style service for cdemu for example I guess.)
BTW on your graphics issues, were you just talking about the framebuffer? Because a VM probably couldn't detect your monitor settings at the UEFI/init stuff. You'll probably have to manually specify a resolution if you want the framebuffer to not just default to whatever.
Normally the firmware gets it from the videocard which in turn gets the monitor itself, but a VM doesn't have direct access.
Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π±
in reply to Nazo • • •@nazokiyoubinbou
OK, as far as the graphics thing goes, I'm not sure about that - what I saw was in the System Settings, then Display, I could opt to change the screen resolution, but not a single available option actually came close to my screen. As I think I said, several other distros have just gone - 'oo that's a big screen, here you go!' or similar either at start-up or after log-in π
Also as I'm (almost!) about to try MX, I'll remember the Debian roots when Gnome-Boxes asks me, thanks.
Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π±
in reply to Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π± • • •@nazokiyoubinbou
OMG - this is fun!
MX (under Gnome-Boxes) has a choice in the grub menu for sysvinit or systemd, which is excellent. And it instantly picked up my screen configuration, which is even better.
I can see me playing with this over the next few day, for sure.
Nazo
in reply to Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π± • • •Bytebro π¬π§ πΊπ¦ π¬π±
in reply to Nazo • • •@nazokiyoubinbou
It's installing as we speak. I'll sleep then play tomorrow, I think!