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Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset I have no interest in political correctness, etc. I believe in a classical education. My focus is also The West.
Unknown parent

Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset German is definitely a good option as well. I actually debated whether I should include it in my original post. Italian is certainly a beautiful language, and I wouldn't be opposed to that as an elective either. But Latin and French should be learned, due to their importance and prestige.
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset I honestly have no idea what is wrong with introduction and instruction. I am assuming you're refering to the deductive and didactic methods of teaching. The problem is when things aren't taught and the student is allowed to write and speak all sorts of nonsense in the name of dialects, etc. without being corrected, or left on his own to figure things out. That is not teaching and is harmful. As for "classist", "elitist", etc. those are leftist terms and I do not subscribe to any of that. But I do know that having knowledge that gives you access to great works of literature, historical documents, and other languages is certainly not a bad thing. If others aren't taught this, it isn't your fault. Always strive for the best.
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset At least we can agree on that! Unfortunately, it's not just America. Even England's educational system has suffered, even at Eton and Oxford! I was horrified and truly saddened to read what they do now.
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset Actually, the earlier you start a language, the better. The brain is more elastic then. And when that young, you wouldn't be reading the classics in their original language. You would be studying grammar and beginning to write your own verses. Recitation of lines would start later.
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset I don't need to look them up. I had a very leftist professor at university who taught both anthropology and sociology. She talked about them ad nauseam, to the point that I eventually hated my own major and would have switched if it wasn't so late in my studies. And just to clarify, when I say leftist, I don't mean that she had a few liberal views. She was literally let go for being arrested at protests so many times. Unfortunately, I had already completed my studies by that point. At any rate, it makes no sense not to study something just because others were held behind for not knowing it. As a matter of fact, it makes even more sense to do so, since you will be ahead of your peers. Regardless, as I said, all of this is pat of being truly cultured and well-educated.
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset That is, if nothing else, a sensible argument. I won't deny that. But starting early does mean they will have more time with the language. With French, for example, the style of learning is different and quicker, as it's more friendly and familiar. But with Latin, if it is to be taught properly, it takes a long time and is much more intense. The purpose here isn't just to teach Latin, though. It's to help discipline the mind, to teach the skills of memorisation, recitation, translation (construing), and problem solving. It makes the mind itself strong. I wrote a syllabus here.

dandylover1.dreamwidth.org/994…

I myself need to return to it. It's difficult to do this with a screen reader and errors in the text.

Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset Again, you're basing things on politics. I'm basing them on results. Read the writing of the past. It was full of eloquence and a far better vocabulary than today. In many cases, it also contained great wit, humour, or at the very least, mentioned great works of literature, art, history, mythology, etc. I'm not just talking about fiction, but diaries, memoirs, and letters as well. Is it true that the lower classes weren't well-educated? Yes. Should that stop someone from becoming so? Absolutely not. That would be like my refusing to eat a delicious meal because some people are starving. It's ridiculous. If I have the opportunity to eat good food, I shall. And if I have the opportunity to receive a good education, I shall, regardless of whether others have or not. What they do is not my business. I am not the caretaker of the world. In more general terms, if someone wishes to pass on his knowledge to others, that is a wonderful thing. He may even become a teacher.
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset Okay. In all fairness, then, why did adults in the past, particularly in the nineteenth and very early twentieth centuries write and speak so well? Why were their memories so good, and why was their knowledge so vast? I don't mean with relation to sciencies and things that weren't known in their time, but within what was understood. Did it not come from being well-educated? No one is born knowing these things. Mind you, I would never support corporal punishment in the classroom, etc. but there is something to be said for learning the right things.
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset That may be true. But then, it's important to discuss them, not classism, or elitism, or why some people were educated and others weren't. That has nothing to do with the actual results of the education itself. Obviously, if we're talking about those who were well-educated in the past, for the most part, we will be referring to the upper classes, so why even mention it?
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset Even if the methodology is different, the subjects should still be the same. Of course, then, the question becomes, if the old methods aren't used, what could be substituted for them.
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset Quite honestly, my interest lies in the upper classes. But even if it didn't, in this conversation, why should it matter how the uneducated spoke, wrote, etc? Clearly, they didn't do so correctly, having never been taught, perhaps barring a few geniuses who were self-taught. If, then, we are to gauge the effectiveness of a good education, would it not make sense to focus on the writings, etc. from those who received it? Likewise, if I were interested in learning about how metal was made, I would ask a smith, not an Oxford professor of poetry.
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset Yes, and this has spread as a result, so that even the educated are now participating in it. Not to mention informality in almost every aspect of life, from dress in the workplace, to speech, to business letters,, etc. It's a disgrace. And what is more, it's becoming more and more difficultto find good writing, in everything from daily life to newspapers, to documentaries. Everything is being dumbed down.
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset And if you have the tools to advance in society, you, or at least generations after you, become truly respectable. But certainly, those who are educated are more respected than those who are not, and they can express themselves in meaningful ways.
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset If you wish to discuss the flaws, than focus on why this form of education is better than that one, or why this one is bad. For instance, some children may not be good at memorising things. Some may be visual learners. Some may learn better if they are allowed to figure things out on their own rather than being taught. I just provided arguments against my own beliefs, and politics wasn't included in any of them.
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset I'm not quite sure where you got that idea. I never said that no one else is worthy of education. I said, when discussing education, it makes sense to actually look at what the educated wrote. that is very different.
in reply to Georgiana Brummell

Some don’t have the time or resources to spend the dedicated hours of the day to study in such an inefficient manner.

Some can’t afford tutors with specialities in that particular subject.

That particular subject no longer really applies in todays society, despite how much it is lauded, therefore time is better spent concentrating on other things first

Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset My personal interest is in the upper class, yes. But in this particular discussion, it only makes sense to focus on them, since they were the ones who received the education. Does this mean that I don't believe everyone is worthy of a good education? No. But if we're looking at the past, we must also accept the fact that this is how it was done then. So most of the people we would discuss would be from those classes. It's just like talking about the great universities. Now, they allow women to join, which is obviously wonderful. But most of them, at one time, only allowed men to do so, so it would be pointless to talk of female students of those universities before they were allowed to enter.
in reply to Alien_Sunset

@Alien_Sunset Okay. At least these are real reasons that we can work with. But remember that the education I'm referring to starts in childhood. It's a bit silly to think that a young child, or even a teenager, can't find the time to study. And I'm not talking about Latin, but in general. There were many more subjeects that I mentioned, so even if, for the sake of argument, you were to eliminate Latin, the others would still be relevant.
Unknown parent

Unknown parent

mastodon - Link to source
Alien_Sunset
I would estimate, given what i have seen in regards to homeschooling and the records of prestigious schools that in an eight hour day there is only really about 4-5 hours of actual learning/absorption of knowledge/synthesis/integration at best, likely significantly less
This entry was edited (1 month ago)
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset You have at least two hours on the bus, for one thing. As for the rest, I honestly don't know. But this is a very clear reason to support the idea that, if you can't afford to care for your children, you shouldn't have them. Basically, their parents are forcing failure on them by making them care for their siblings, making them work instead of focusing on their education, not being their for them, etc. and in this case, probably not applying for (or sadly, not receiving) financial assistance, which would help the child at least get nutritional food. This is not a problem with the educational system. It is a result of bad parenting, and choosing to be parents without financial stability.
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset Oh, certainly. it's better to teach one on one, but even I recognise that this is unrealistic most of the time. Unfortunately, there will be some losses. But it's far better than having nothing at all. And those who are truly behind can receive tutoring, even from their peers. some schools do this, and it can even lead to friendships.
in reply to Alien_Sunset

@Alien_Sunset That is truly interesting. Why would you say it's so low. Of course, there is lunch, physical education, and moving between classes. But does it really take up that much time, or do you mean that the students are burnt out after a certain amount of time?
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset Yes. It is a proper education and leads to one being cultured. And yes, it does bring true respectability. Right or wrong, those in the trades will never have the same type of respect as those who are educated at a university, etc. It's just that they are also necessary and not everyone is meant for the ivory towe, so I had to include those who aren'tr. Going to university used to be a special thing that set one apart from the rest and gave one all sorts of different avenues to follow. even business school was helpful. Now that everyone is doing it, it's just like going to the lower grades. But part of the problem is the bad education that most receive today. If you don't have a good foundation, you can't suddenly change. But the standards at universities have also been lowered, which is why such people are being allowed to enter in the first place, and so, the cycle continues, particularly with those who then become educators. Am I saying all are this way? Absolutely not But many are. I've been taught by some of them myself.
Unknown parent

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Alien_Sunset

A lot of school instruction time is actually just repeating itself over & over, not even changing the way a thing is said or explained, with the hopes that it will just…. Eventually sink in.

Smaller classes would help, the ability to change methodology ‘mid session’ would help. The ability to allow children more agency to direct discussions would help. But all of those things need more teachers/training. And ‘progress’ is less easily quantified/standardised

Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset . In the past, such things were understandable. Now, they're just obstacles to a good education. Again, if you can't afford to care for children, don't have them. We have contraceptives and abortion now. None of that existed then. As for those who fall on hard times, that's entirely different, and my heart goes out to them. I could only hope that they can find the help they need. But certainly, if a child is going through terrible things at home, his grades will suffer and for that, he should not be punished. Just to clarify, I would feel sorryfor the child regardless of whether the parents were just irresponsible or fell from grace. None of it is his fault.
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset What do you mean by administrative tasks during class? I am genuinely curious. When I went to school, the teachers taught. They weren't doing paperwork, for example. And if this is a problem now and wasn't then, why wouldn't it make sense to return to a more efficient methods of teaching? Obviously, something changed between then and now to cause the problem.
in reply to Georgiana Brummell

And yes, burn out is definitely an issue as well.
Very few children really thrive in the way schools are structured now, those that do are rare or given outside help & instruction that a lot of children just can’t access (that whole classism thing again)

Like, I was a fairly intelligent child, but also had undiagnosed/untreated adhd/mild autism, i was able to actually progress as well as i did because of my intelligence & a fortunate overlap in special interests.

in reply to Alien_Sunset

I didn’t really start actually learning until college when i was more able to self direct and seek out instruction methods more suited to my ways of learning
in reply to Alien_Sunset

@Alien_Sunset All of this makes complete sense. When I was in grade school, the classes were small. If there were thirty students in a given clasroom, that was a lot. We were always encouraged to ask questions and to get involved, and teaching was not just repeating. Yes, there were pure lectures as well, which I personally enjoyed, but I never found them to be repetitious. There was always something new to learn. We also had videos, etc. so it wasn't always the same style of teaching.
Unknown parent

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Alien_Sunset

That respectability thing again, that thing people need to be able to access education and progress, but can’t get unless they already have that education, or were born into it.

Oh, and the gap between being able to afford those things and not is growing every day.

But sure, it’s the parents fault for having kids.

in reply to Alien_Sunset

@Alien_Sunset I can't say I ever had burn-out until entering university. And then, it honestly was due to that teacher. Unfortunately, I took several classes with her, and many contained the same material, none of which interested me, and some of which annoyed me. I was hoping to learn about different cultures and whatnot, and while we did, a lot of it was about class conflict, the "working classes", etc. I felt like I was in a class about communism. That is why I may have been a bit harsh and unfair toward you. I still don't agree with said poins, but I see a lot of things about race, class, etc. in the Fediverse and elsewhere, and not only does it remind me of those classes, but it gets on my nerves.
in reply to Alien_Sunset

@Alien_Sunset I was disapointed with college. I found it to be basically a glorified high school. I wasn't really challenged, and I didn't learn the things I thought I should have. In high school, I literally used to beg for grammar worksheets because I felt the education in that field was inadequate. In college, most of the professors were very informal, and i just didn't feel that this is what it should have been like. I received a decent education by today's standards, but I always felt it was inadequate when compared with that of the past.
in reply to Georgiana Brummell

I don’t know when you went to school, but every class needs to take attendance. Nearly every class has the passing in our handing back of homework. (Sometimes they go over the homework’s, but sometimes not, and not usually in a way that is actually helpful)

Testing has become a farce in and of itself and takes up a massive amount of time.

The education system is terrible, and a lot of the reason is bureaucracy and misaligned goals and standards

Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset I don't know how anyone can use respectability to cut programmes. That makes no sense at all. I'm not doubting you. I just don't see the connection. Even a lord can lose all of his money. Many have. That doesn't make him any less respectable. Neeither does asking for help when it's needed.
in reply to Alien_Sunset

@Alien_Sunset Yes, it is. If you're not in a good situation, either mentally or financially, you should not have children. It makes it difficult for you and them, and it's not fair to them. And again, education is mandatory, so it isn't as if we're dealing with people who never learned to read, etc. But there have been those from the lowest classes who climbed the social ladder because they were determined. Many did it through business, but some did it through education, through studying on their own, or obtaining scholarships. They didn't start with the best of everything, but they made the best of what they had and went far in life. It's not impossible. It depends on what you want and how hard you're willing to work for it.
in reply to Alien_Sunset

@Alien_Sunset I completed high school in 2002 and college in 2006. Now, I see what you mean. The homework, attendence, etc. has always been there. In the past, students were often expected to recite things, etc. so that took even more time. Wy should that be a problem now? As for testing, that is true. It has become ridiculous.
in reply to Georgiana Brummell

I mean i didn’t say i learned a lot from my professors 😉
(Although i did, as they had more freedom to teach and track student interests into account)
But just not being restricted to what i was “supposed” to learn or one particular methodology helped more than anything.

Being allowed to follow an interesting topic brought up in class and study it and write about it with the approval of the teacher even if it wasn’t strictly on the syllabus was amazing.

in reply to Georgiana Brummell

And yet, and yet….

Never said it made sense.
And it 100% is stupid, counterintuitive, and cruel, and part of me suspects that the cruelty is the point.

Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset I just hate when everything is made political. The whole point of my original post was a hypothetically perfect educational experience. But education has declined so much within the last century or more that even the rich usually don't receive the type that I was promoting. But you're rightt about my not thinking of class, race, third world countries, etc. Most of the people I know are not within those groups, and it really has nothing to do with my viewpoint or perspective. (I am not out to save the world, just to enjoy life.) Likewise, most sighted people don't think of things from the blind perspective, but since I'm blind, I'm more knowledgeable regarding accessibility, adaptive technology, etc. It's very different for those who write websites, for example, as they should make themselves aware of the WCAG guidelines and so on, but I'm talking about average people.
in reply to Alien_Sunset

@Alien_Sunset Yes. As much as I do like a structured approach, for those who really do struggle with learning or maintaining interest, I can definitely see how something like that could be extremely beneficial. That would be a realistic alternative to my more rigid system.
in reply to Alien_Sunset

@Alien_Sunset No. I definitely didn't think you agreed with such things. I just couldn't understand how anyone could or what kinds of arguments could possibly be used in defence of it.
Unknown parent

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Alien_Sunset
I’ve kept up with several of the friends i made that were able to continue on to teaching and it just keeps getting worse.
And the handful of teens i know in schools now confirm it.
It would likely take a very big shake up to fix the system as it is now. And a lot of kids would likely fall through the cracks in the mean time.
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset I can't remember such tasks taking more than a few minutes at best. Things must have really changed.
in reply to Georgiana Brummell

A good 5-10 minutes at out of every half hour class.
It was terrible.
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset I fully agree about education being fully accessible. Fortunately, I never had to deal with any of that. I had an aid and braille instructor in grade school, and braille devices. By university, I had a flatbed scanner and a laptop. By the time I completed my studies, I was using a computer for everything. But it is a serious prolblem in general and one that should be addressed.
Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset Hugs. Deque University has courses on it. Also, Geeks4Geeks, while it's not specifically related to accessibility, does teach html and ensures that their lessons are accessible. I am just starting out in all of this, as I am interested in becoming an accessibility tester, but I can tell you that writing in semantic html is one of the most important steps. That way, all things are labelled properly and correctly i.e. a button is really a button, not a link that just looks like a button. I can definitely help you test your site, not as a professional, but as a user. Also, don't be afraid to ask for help in the Fediverse. If nothing else, the people here take accessibility very seriously.
in reply to Georgiana Brummell

oh, yeah, the fediverse is amazing!
I've already gotten so much help with stuff from people here, it's been awesome. 😁
Unknown parent

Unknown parent

@Alien_Sunset The important thing is that you actually care and are trying to change things. Many people either don't know, don't care, or know but refuse to fix things, even when they're brought to their attention.
in reply to Georgiana Brummell

I’ll send these links along! Thanks!
His family have been working tirelessly for him but just keep hitting so many roadblocks.

I know they know about a lot of stuff already, but the system is saying that since he isn’t totally blind (yet) he doesn’t qualify & etc.

Some of us who know him are thinking of doing a small fundraiser, so this info is super helpful!

in reply to Alien_Sunset

@Alien_Sunset sigh He's not totally blind yet, so let's not give him the help he needs now, so that he will be ready for it in the future! I'm not angry at you, but at them. This is both stupid and idiotic. He deserves all the help he can get, and certainly, if it can be incorporated into his lessons, etc. that's even better. Again, if I can help in any way, just let me know. I can even draught a file of links pertaining to blindness, etchnology, etc. and send it to you. This includes online shops for buying simple things, such as household items, to complicated ones. No one should ever have to go through this without support!
in reply to Georgiana Brummell

I appreciate it, it means a lot! 😁

like I said, his family knows/is doing a lot already, but I can ask if the need any more info.

it's just so frustrating to watch, you know?

in reply to Georgiana Brummell

@Alien_Sunset

What a wonderful merit vs. ideology dialog.

Well, as far as I remember my history lessons, the world always belonged to the people who adopt merit. Ideology is the goddess of the mediocracy.